Lessons Learned: Max Shank and Micah Yu, MD

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined. A podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in health care. Hey guys, welcome back to Medicine Redefined. Today is another awesome lesson to learn with my buddy, Darsha, and we talk about our recent discussion with Micah U and Max Shank, and you'll find this episode is not filled with a lot of science, and we don't quote a lot of literature, but it's very much akin to our conversation with both Micah and Max. It's taking a step back, looking at the big picture, trying to see where we can implement some change, and make the world a better place, as we have been trying to do from the very get go. But before we get into the show, let's talk a little bit about this episode sponsor. Vive Funds is a commercial multifamily real estate, trusted by physician investors, physician families, and busy entrepreneurs from all over the US, located in Dallas, Texas, and founded by Vina Jetti, Vive Funds specializes in curating conservative passive real estate investment opportunities for investors. Vina brings a dynamic perspective to targeting, acquiring, managing, and operating investment assets using the best time-tested practices combined with cutting edge technologies. Reach out to Vina and her team and Vive Funds to find out how you can be successful investor to by creating opportunities for you to build your portfolio. You can find them in Dr. Podcast Network dot com slash Vive Funds. Again, that's Dr. Podcast Network dot com slash Vive Funds. Now, without further delay, let's get into this week's show. All right. We are back for another lesson learned with the one and only Darshan Shop. Hello. What's up? What's going on, buddy? How are you? I'm good. I'm doing well. I'm excited. I love doing these. I'm excited to do another one. Officially a physiatrist. I know. Officially a physiatrist. Big name. Wait, not a psychiatrist, right? Yeah. Dude, I go on these career fairs. Like the ones we do and all of them are just like, oh, sorry, we don't have any psychiatric openings. I'm like, great. That's not what I'm here for. Awesome. What about me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, hopefully for those who have been listening and I feel like we've got a few of recorders who probably listened to this, they definitely know what a physiatrist is. So I mean, how's the residency going? It's good, man. It's much better than an intern year. You know, a lot more free time. But it's just, it's different, right? Like when you're, when you're finally doing something you love, there's more interest in it. You start to listen to patients better. You try a little harder, right? Like you're, you're actually looking up some stuff outside to see what you can do to make the patients better. So it's better overall, better vibes, better feeling. So wake up happy, which is what rotation are you on right now? What have you done? Have you done any general? No. So we do two block rotations, almost final chord. I start on spinal cord, still on spinal cord, which is, which is probably my favorite. Oh, inpatient too, it's the most experience I've had with like, really, yeah, with like, rotation stuff too, so yeah. Cool. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. All right. Well, man, let's get to it. Um, the last three episodes, we had two guests, three episodes, powerhouses, talked about somewhat different things, right? One was more focused on nutrition and auto immunity with, uh, Micah, you, uh, could take away from you. You kind of connected with him on Instagram, kind of brought him on. So what were your thoughts? Would you learn? Yeah. I found really admirable of him is that he's on this continuous journey to just keep learning, you know, as, as much as he can to help his patients and he's always, you know, you look him on Instagram, he's got like a lot of integrated medicine posts. He really much keeps an open mind, um, out there. And rightfully so because we know rheumatology autoimmune disease, there's so much research data that's just coming out. We're seeing more symptoms of autoimmune disease, you know, more people are getting diagnosed with it. There's a lot of complexity, there's a lot of gray area and he's trying to really just sift through all of it to really give the best perspectives to each individual, right? And autoimmune disease is not one of those things where, you know, five lupus patients are going to, you know, um, present the same way, right? One might have different, you know, one might have kidney, one might have skin, uh, one might have heart issues, et cetera, et cetera. And so I just found it really awesome that he's, you know, has a lot, he's board certified in lifestyle medicine. He's coming up on integrative medicine right now and he's also working on functional medicine. And he even says in his podcast is that once he has all three, it's like, hey, who can he get attacked by at that point, right? Because he's going to have kind of all three angles plus an alopathic degree, right? He has his MD, um, and so he's going to sift through to see, you know, what works, what doesn't because the biggest issue that a lot of people have with, you know, functional medicine or integrated medicine is that, oh, it's not evidence-based. And he even came onto our podcast and dropped articles that were like, hey, there are parts to this that are evidence-based, of course, not everything is even an alopathic and osteopathic medicine. I mean, there's going to be things that we do in medicine for no reason, right? I mean, there's, there's blog posts on why we give hydrozene, you know, you know, for this or that. And there's no reason we just do because it's ingrained in us. Um, so it's going to be cool to kind of just, you know, see his growth in terms of what he learns. I agree to your point about who can attack him. I mean, the trolls are going to come in regard to that, right? Yeah. They just came out of it. We do all the training two days ago. So it was all right. Yeah. We don't have to get out of it right now, but, um, yeah, it doesn't, I don't, I don't think they're really looking at your degrees when people are coming at you. And, you know, what's interesting, I, it, I was just thinking about this one of my best buddies from, from med school, we were, my roommate, and he, he did a residency neurology. We kind of just met up this past weekend, and he had gone to do fellowship in stroke. And then he was going to do a one year stroke fellowship and then do another three years for interventional neurology. And now he's like, you know, I'm kind of second guessing, like mid 30s at this point already. And it's just so funny because, you know, most people finish undergrad and you really kind of kickstarted your life at like 21. Yeah. But here my man is like 35 years old. That's like, that's another like 11, 12, 13 years that you're putting on extra. And you can always continue learning. And, and we have to continue learning to stay up to date with the literature and stuff. But I, I do find it fascinating because I, you know, I got a different sense from him that he, I got the sense that he was still thirsty. I mean, I, I think we are in a sense, but he was still looking for this knowledge because he was trying to blend the best of all the world. And I don't want to say both worlds again, because you talk about functional medicine, integrated medicine, you talk about alopathic osteopathic really is like, we have all the tools in the tool belt and like, let's just use the best tool that we have or maybe more than one tool to address the person, their issue in front of us. And of course, you know, some of that passion, maybe it's a bias, right? We spend a lot of time and I think he probably, it sounds like does a lot of his visits entail looking at the nutritional side of things because it does play a large part. And we've given that it's fair share on this podcast just in general since we've started now. But you know, I really like that. And again, I go back to the empathizing with our patients, right? And him kind of struggling for, I guess, maybe a decade or so. And I don't think he was ever anti anything, I forget it. Maybe he might have said that he wasn't too keen on taking a lot of medications. Did he say that? I think he tries to reduce medication burden like whenever possible, if there's a fix for it, like given a lifestyle intervention, like diet or something. Yeah. Well, I mean, personally, like him personally, because he did not want to, yeah, because they recommend a methotrexate for him and he was like, no, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Which for those of you who don't know is a really gnarly medication. And unfortunately, with these rheumatoid diseases, as he calls them invisible diseases, you know, the difficulty with them is, I mean, it's, you're not, there's no, there's no treatment. There's no pure cure. The treatment, but there's like managing the symptoms is kind of what you're doing. And that's what methotrexate is doing. But it comes with a host of side effects, I think he got diagnosed. He had a super young age, right? So trying to play that game and sing for the long call, obviously, you're going to be playing with the side effects. And a lot of nasty things. So I certainly appreciate that. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, he found his solution in going plant-based. And for him, you know, the, the, the many he went plant-based and he doesn't admit that, you know, he, he'll be a little pescatarian here or he'll enjoy meat here and there. But for the majority of his life now, he's, he's 100% plant-based. He's seen the pain go away and he's, you know, living his best life now. And that's what exactly what drew him into rheumatology as a field and what he's looking to do with his patients. Now, you know, and I asked him, you know, what's the, what's the intake form like, you know, and when a new patient comes in and it's pretty comprehensive, you know, it's, it's the same thing as when I shadowed the functional medicine doctor who will hopefully have him in the next couple of weeks, it's the same thing. You're kind of going through their whole life journey, what their diets like right now, what medications do they take, the environment, right? We've now know that even like environmental exposures, the mold, your air filters in your house, all these things have the ability to manifest, you know, with bodily symptoms. So for sure, for sure. Yeah. And again, I do find it. I think he said that he's, he has plant predominant and I do like that. I think that the, the theme generally has been for more than one guess that's come on is less incorporate more plants in our diet. And I don't think we're certain that you're 100% plant-based. I am not. I love meat. I love doing that. But I can stand to have a lot more vegetables in my diet. I don't think I need to put on as, you know, as I get wiser in my ears and, you know, my goals are changing. I'm not trying to be the fastest, be the most explosive, that kind of stuff. I don't need to put in as much protein in my body. What again, we've talked about this at length before. That plants are definitely, again, and that's plants. We want to be, make sure we make the distinction. Not necessarily talking to festivals. We're talking plants and Dr. B came in kind of explained what that is. I mean, we're talking about nuts, we're talking about greens, legumes and all that kind of stuff as well. Fruits in there, they're going to be better for a host of, you know, systems in the body and the biochemical reactions that are, they're working. And long term, they're not going to be as colorically dense. And then weight loss, especially with a lot of these rheumatoid diseases, which have an arthritic component, most of them, right? These rheumatoid diseases tend to attack arthritis and, oh, excuse me, attack your joints, which is kind of a form of arthritis. And so, you know, when you have weight loss, which is going to be an indirect effect of eating low, like low density foods, which is typically what plants are, right? They're high volume. You can't overeat on calories and you tend to lose weight, you tend to do better. Like, I see so much osteoarthritis as you can imagine sports medicine, man. I try to have these conversations with the people about, hey, let's lose weight. You're going to really benefit. Yeah. I am rarely successful, but every now and then, you know, it's, it's worthwhile. You know what the difficult part about that conversation for me is, man, and you'll see this when you go to that patient must go to medicine is like, for instance, most surgeons and I think this is probably universal will not do a new replacement on somebody, despite the extent of destruction and then how, however messed up the joint is, unless their BMI is like below 40 something, because they're just going to wear that out even fast. Right. And so then this individual who's constantly in pain, I'm going off a little tangent here, but I do think it's worthwhile. This person who's constantly in pain cannot exercise, but cannot get the surgery to get them out of the pain. It's very, very difficult, right? And I mean, yeah, we can address the nutrition, but I think a combination of both things are going to help. So I think, obviously, that's why our focus is so much on preventative medicine and let's not even try to get there. And if you are there, it's okay. We can kind of backpedal or we can just pivot. But I don't want people to kind of think, I do certainly think that the plants are better for majority of us, and more like it rarely hurts us, unless there are a few exceptional people who talk about how you have to eat plants or terrible for you, but I think sometimes like, again, this goes back to the conversation about eat the ore, okay, I have to do all plants and I can't do meat. And again, Mike had talked about at the end, it's not osteopathic versus allopathic. It's not functional versus non-functional medicine. It's like, okay, can we do both? For him, plant-based seem to work a little bit better and for a lot of people, more plants work. Yep. And again, I think it's a common thing. We got to experiment. We got to test out like kind of what's happening here. And interestingly, like personally, I started to increase my dairy intake, right? Like cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, just to get more protein, like intake in for lower calories. And like I started noticing like eczema on my legs, like eczema coming back on my arm. Not a hundred percent certain that it's dairy, but that's really the only thing that has changed in the last month. So that's super interesting. I think we just got to experiment, you know, I'll probably go off of dairy for like the next month or so and just kind of see what happens, does it go away, does it not? So biggest thing is here, you gotta be willing to try. I'm glad you said that. I was just listening to E.C. Sinkowski's recent podcast, he had a quick bite episode. I just heard it today. He posted this too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she talked about, you know, people are so hyper aware. Actually, her last two episodes are really, really loved. She talked about the worried well, right? And sometimes at a point in my life, I think that I could be in that category as well. She talked about how, you know, people are so hyper aware after what they eat. That's maybe it's not the food, right? Right. Maybe it's your two-year-old and one-year-old would keep you in up all night. I mean, what are your thoughts about that? I'm curious. I totally agree, right? I totally agree. I think, yes, food does play a role, like, of course, we know the gut brain connection. Like, that's there. That's fact. Does not necessarily mean that every single time you put something in your body, like, it's causing a chain reaction to make your body manifest in a way that you don't want it to, right? Like, there's obviously stress causes that, right? Like, if I told somebody, hey, you're not, like, you only sleep in two hours a day, is the reason why you have these bags on your eyes, you're gonna be like, no, no, it's because I had, I didn't have my celery juice, you know, like, it's like, come on, you know? Yeah, I think, I think we have to put it all into context. And again, a lot of these experiments take forever, like, these self-experimentation, right? Like, elimination, elimination diets are great, but they're only great if you do it for long enough of a time to actually see those effects. And that's the tough part about it, is that nobody wants to wait that long. Nobody really wants to have enough control variables and only change one thing. Yeah, I totally agree with you, see there. Yeah, and you know what's funny about that? I always think about this is, again, at one stage in my life, I mean, when I was highly involved in the fitness industry, you're trying to get as lean as possible, right? I think most people go through that stage. And dude, dieting can be extremely stressful, right? Like cutting calories, counting macros, like, that's a stressful process. When, when majority of your day is, you know, revolves around that, and that's all your preoccupied, like, that's going to jack up your cortisol level. Yeah. That's going to get you revved up. It's going to be much more difficult for you to fall asleep at night. And then you're going to poor quality sleep. And then you're going to be fatigued. And it's just going to be this vicious cycle. And so I think a lot of people feel it's realized it's like, they're so freaked out because nutrition is so mainstream, like, oh my god, go back to the celery juice, or I got to do my clean detox, whatever. And I didn't do that. And that's why. And they're freaking out about the minutiae. And then they're not appreciating like, okay, how, how just revved up their, you know, system and sympathetic drive it. And that's just having downstream effects. And again, I think Peter T. I once mentioned, I talked about this is, like, you know, what you put in your body, how you exercise that kind, like the nutrients putting into your body, you can control that. But what you have no control over is how that's allocated, whether it's going to fat, whether it's going to muscle, right? And that's where the hormones come in. And that's why you need to keep them in check. And there are, there are multiple ways that happens, right? We talked about mindfulness. We talked about sleep on this. We've talked about nutrition. We've talked about exercise. I mean, it's all kind of connected. But you need to make sure you check all the boxes. So actionable tip, all right? So we said a lot. Yeah. Let's, let's bring it together. What's the one piece of advice that you give somebody that you might have taken from Micah that somebody else can implement in their practice? The biggest thing for me that I heard from Micah was almost like, imbibe nature, right? Like force, saving, get out more. Do the more natural things, right? Like I think we're so preoccupied. Like you said, like the worried, well, am I taking my biohacking juice enough? Am I getting enough? Like sometimes, let's just take a step back. What would we have been doing like a million years ago, right? Like we'd be outside. We'd be walking. We'd be having social connections. We would not be so worried about every damn day and like every single calorie that goes in. We would just enjoy the process, enjoy life and just enjoy everything around you. Right? I think so many times if you can just get into that flow state of mind and flow state of living, a lot of your prongs will go away, right? Like a lot of pain as we talk about this podcast is perception-based. And when you can clear up your mind and filter out your mind, you're also going to filter out a lot of the pain and the other symptoms. Yeah, the one last thing I just want to add in terms of, I mean, I'm spot on everything that you said. I know how much to add on that. But I remember we talked about organic versus non-organic. Again, this is again minutia going back to it. I think the, some example that you talked about, he's like, I'd much rather somebody to eat a pesticide-filled apple than eat like an organic twinky, right? Right, right. And once in a while, I haven't had a twinky and nothing wrong with that either. But one thing that I do is, because again, people still ask me this question on a daily basis is, for that specific thing, the only things that I purchase organically are, I would just encourage you guys to Google just EWG dirty dozen, right? It's the environmental work in general. Yeah, the environmental work in general. Yeah, there's a really cool organization, and we're going to touch on probably some of that later when we talk Tracy Dues as well. Some like, you know, they talk about toxicity and different things, and they kind of have a list of things that might, you might want to opt for organic. So like apples is on there, I think actually celery might be on there, I forget. But anyways, so that's what I'll, because again, people talk about, like, they're expensive too. There's a financial harm, and we've talked about that as well. So that's the last thing I'll say on that, and let's shift gears. Let's talk about Max. Let's do it. Max, Hank, what a guy? What a guy. Really, really though. And it's funny, man. And as you know, I did get to go hang out with him. I mean, you know, he's a funny dude, big picture guy. It's amazing because he's same age as us. But you know, he, as he, he mentioned in the discussion with us, then he appears wise is because he's tried a lot of things. And that's what it is, right? That's, you know, wisdom is just kind of an expression of experiences you've acquired over time. Right. And so you know, you might sound like you know, it works and what doesn't work. And he's dabbled in different sports from a young age. He started a business at a young age. So, you know, probably a lot of roller coasters hit his head different places, learned some good lesson the hard way. And so now it's like, I remember some of his earlier programs because I've been following him for maybe like six or seven years. And, you know, it was a very much science base the way that he talked him. He might still do that. I don't know how he gives lectures and presentations. But at least our conversations, I got the sense that it was like very much philosophical, holistic, big picture. Like what is going on? Why does it matter? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No, I think the biggest thing I enjoyed about the podcast was just like his perspective, his philosophy, like life lessons. Like that's, that's what I'm all about. It's just growing from your experiences, trying to optimize for the future in that sense, but living in the present. And that's exactly what he does, right? It's, I mean, not how to describe it. It's almost like you just have to listen to those two episodes to really get an appreciation for kind of his journey. Being the mad scientist that he's so called, you know, that he calls himself. And then realizing, you know, like, okay, maybe gymnastics isn't the answer. Maybe CrossFit's not the answer. Maybe Bodybuilding's not the answer. But somehow a combination of those philosophies together is something you try to embody. And so, you know, he created this thing called Five Minifitness, right? Or Five Minute Flow. Five Minute Flow. And he really started to understand that hey, not everyone's kind of like me. Not everyone's going to work out five hours a day and be really in super into fitness. But how do we get that first actionable step, right? Because if we don't get that actionable step, he talks about the high opportunity cost of zero, not moving at all during the day, not waking up, not stretching, not doing any any type of exercise. There's a huge price you pay for that. But on the other end, if you just add five minutes to your day, there's an enormous benefit, right? If you add those up throughout the years. So, what did you kind of take away from that? Yeah, it's a cumulative dose, right? I mean, if you're just putting a five minute minus a mobility, then your joints are going to appreciate it, right? It's not really a caloric effect that you're going to. And I think he touched on that as well. But it's just, you know, again, Kelly started talks about that. You know, you could spend five minutes doing some maintenance or pre-hab today or you can spend hours rehabbing tomorrow, right? And not obviously not legitimate, but like sometime in the future because something's going on. Right. And I think that's the premise of it, right? To your point about him not focusing down and saying, okay, this is the approach, gymnastics and stuff. I think he had talked about the growth of the ultimate of the athleticism, which was maybe his second program. It's a really awesome program. I loved it and I used it a lot in medical school, just simple programming. And I think the idea behind it is you're just taking a handful of exercises, non-competing high-skilled movements, like for instance, like he would love to do dead lips with L-sit to handstand, right? You guys can Google it. He's probably tons of videos on this. And so you have gymnastic moon with like an explosively heavy string shooting movement. Both require high amounts of skill, but they're not necessarily not competing, right? And you're working a lot in your body. And what I like about that it kind of reminds me a couple of different things. One thing we talked to, well, I don't think we talked to AC about this, but I remember her mentioning, it's the same idea as saying that like, you know, when people go to a restaurant and they really enjoy that restaurant, they're like, oh man, this is the best restaurant ever. But if you like it, I might not like it. Just because your experience was great, you got great service, or you enjoyed the food, doesn't necessarily mean that's going to work for me, right? So people are trying to put the only experience to other. Same thing happens like when this is the conversation we have with Davis, when people earlier in my younger career when I was stupid, people would say, oh, I don't have time to work out. And I was like, well, you know, I'm busy too, and I have time to work out. How do you not have time? Like that's not helpful, right? Another question that I think I specifically asked him is, you know, somebody comes in and we know that there are some low-hanging fruit, right? When he talks about his daily checklist, right? We know grip training is really, really awesome. We know joints love roles, like he does that. But if somebody comes in and they don't want to use a dumbbell, right, all they've done is kind of machines. And he's like, well, it's okay. We don't have to do anything. We just go for a walk. Yeah. Again, first we have to define the why. Ask that question. Why and what, what are we training for? Why? Like when you asked him the question, what does fitness mean to you? He was like, okay, well, here's the dictionary definition, but we have to define, because fitness can mean so many different things, right? So, I mean, to a cross-fitter sport of fitness, it means something entirely different than somebody who plays golf, right? You know what I mean? That's why, what for? I love that, man. I love that question. I think it might be the most important question we can ask in any situation. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more, man. You know, we kind of further just delved more into his perspective. And, you know, I love that because he kind of almost went on just to kind of ran about, you know, his hiatus that he took on social media. And I know you can speak on that more because you've been following him for a while and then you kind of saw him just disappear. And then he made, he made, he made, he can't come back recently. But he talks about that. He talks about exactly why he did it. Yeah, it's interesting. So, I think he was one of the first people who was bigger on YouTube. I don't think he was as big on social media. But yeah, he definitely put on some good content, just targeted content. And then all of a sudden, stopping YouTube videos, I think stopping social media, he said he tore Peter's business, which I imagine. Because I mean, now that's the main source of marketing, right? I mean, that's between Instagram and Twitter, probably Instagram number one. Depends on the demographic, I suppose. But it was necessary. And I agree, we've talked about this. I think we've talked about it behind the live mic. We've talked about it offline multiple times. It's sometimes literally just mindlessly I will end up in social media. And you know what's interesting? I think my friend Gallow actually told me about this whatever the time limit thing that you cut yourself off after a certain time. And then after what's interesting about that is after you turn that off a few times, you immediately go to like extend time, extend time. And you know, again, I admitted this is because, you know, it doesn't just because we've been doing these pockets doesn't mean I'm perfect. I mean, that's an issue for me. And so that's something that's constantly being worked on. And so he kind of found this in a similar pattern. And it was like, man, this is just time wasted, valuable time wasted. Not necessarily time that he thought he could be sitting there and, you know, acquiring massive amounts of knowledge of being the best person, but just disconnecting, right? Just having leisure time, spending time with your loved ones, going for a walk, enjoying trees, right? Force bathing kind of. Well, Michael, you talked about too. I mean, that would be super helpful if more people can just disconnect a little bit and did that and kind of come back to the roots. Everything that you always talk about. Yeah, absolutely, man. It was funny. I talked to him today on Instagram, just because we're promoting, you know, his last episode and stuff. You know, we just had a simple conversation. How are you and stuff? And he's just like, hey, man, have you guys seen the world yet? And I was like, hey, man, this world is crashing and burning, right? Like this, dude, it's insane. Like, I was even telling him just like, just by the, I don't even follow that many people on Instagram for a reason. So every year, I have something called spring cleaning where I just unfollow a bunch of people that I'm not getting value from. But I give them all a chance. So one year, I'll follow a bunch. If I'm not getting anything, I unfollow. And so I'm like, almost about to go through that again because with COVID, you know, and just everything that's been going on, it just makes my head hurt, right? Because you're hearing opinions right left, top, bottom. And you start to realize it's a zero-sum game, right? Like there's all these intellects out there. Everyone's saying one thing, it makes your head hurt. So I was just telling a man, I was like, hey, man, I'm doing what you're doing and putting my phone away, just reading more books, focusing on myself. And he's like, yeah, it's interesting, right? It's like that one quote where we set out in this world thinking that we want to change the world until we realize, wait, we need to change our nation. Wait, we can't even do that. We have to change our town. Wait, no, we need to change our family until we realize the only person is the only thing you can change is yourself. And I was like, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You nailed it, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. That's so freaking awesome. This goes back, again, I'm always trying to find common themes, right? This goes back to our conversation with ECs, trying to get our loved ones to change them, having the conversations about nutrition, which is something that I used to be so passionate about for such a long time. And you know, what was actually, God, this one really resonates with me because I've actually had this conversation with my wife a couple times saying that, man, sometimes I find it frustrating, it's like, how am I supposed to make an impact? How am I supposed to, quote unquote, make the world a better place and make patients when you can't even get the ones who are closer to you, within the inner circle, to buy in, to change. And, you know, maybe the answer, as you get older, maybe the answer to the question is, maybe you can't, maybe you're not supposed to, right? Maybe, by us trying, we're actually just learning more about ourselves, right? Yeah, I think what you can do is you can inspire, right? And I think this might have been a nipsy hustle, quote, talking about it's to inspire somebody, or if somebody's inspired by you, it's like the highest form of honor, right? Some version of that. I remember Russell West was talking about that. But listen, man, if, hey, Max is certainly one of those people who's done that, Michael, you, everybody who's taken the time and come out here and educated us. And hopefully people have found some value and been inspired by these guests that have come on. And if you have, please reach out to us, reach out to them, let them know, follow them, a lot of awesome people. And, you know, we always have these extensive conversations before and even after. And it's like, you know, our episodes tend to be long enough as it is. And it's funny because there's so much more value to begin. So I highly recommend that you follow Max. You know, he's again, he's not super involved in social media, but he's he's done doing different things in different places. So that's the last thing I'll say, man, anything else? Last part of word. Yeah, that much, man. Again, I just think it's, it's tough for us to put into words what, you know, his thoughts are, but he does a fantastic job, obviously. So, you know, I would highly recommend for anyone to listen to those two episodes. Not only just to understand movement and fitness, but I think it was a really truly powerful episode in just terms of perspective. As a young guy navigating this world and kind of his experiences about what happened, he's a lot of truth in my opinion. So, yeah. Yeah, I want to recap that. I feel like the last 10, 15 minutes, we didn't talk anything specific in the two hours, two and a half hours, whenever we talked to him, there was a lot of fitness discussion and some science involved in there. So, yeah, I highly recommend episode 23, 24. Go check that out. And you guys will not regret it. Yeah, absolutely. Sounds good. All right, man. All right, guys, thank you so much. If you enjoy this, please subscribe, rate, review, and share with everybody. All right, see you later. Well, guys, that's a wrap on another lesson that I learned with my boy, Dars. 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