Lessons Learned: EC Synkowski, MS

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha Shah, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined, a podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in healthcare. Contract diagnostics is a firm 100% dedicated to physician contract reviews. They provide a service that all physician families will need at least one time in their careers, most likely a few additional times as well. I love this company as they've helped over 10,000 physicians understand not only what they are signing, but what risks they are taking for their family. All contracts are reviewed by an in-house attorney and presented in a simplified way back to you. Using custom documentation, compensation data, and times outside normal business hours, they make it easy for you. All packages are flat priced so you know what you will pay up front. Residents and Fellows can even make interest free payments over time. So look them up at Dr.Pockessnetwork.com slash contract diagnostics or call 888-574-5526. Man, our discussion with E.C. Sinkowski last week was an absolute gem. Darshani or such huge fans of E.C. and we were so excited to have her on our podcast. You know, one of the reasons that E.C. is so special in this nutrition space is because she does a great job blocking out all the noise. There's so much confusion in the nutrition space today and you know, she's done a great job in taking a not so novel concept and turning into a novel approach is truly an elegant solution to get people healthy, get them eating better, and creating sustainable habits for long-term success when it comes to nutrition. So in this episode, Darshani, I talk about are the lessons that we learned from E.C. and some of the key takeaways. So without further delay, enjoy this lessons learned for E.C. Sinkowski. All right. What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Lessons Learned here with myself and Altamash. This one was a really cool episode because we got somebody who we really looked up to and when we started delving into E.C. Sinkowski's methods, what she preaches, it really resonated with us. So what do you think, Altamash? Now I agree with you, man. I think like I had mentioned on the episode talking to her is I was extremely excited because she's one of those folks who's actually day-to-day, kind of again, like David said, on the front lines, dealing with clients and patients and implementing some of these nutritional practices and it's not just purely academic. She goes back and looks at the research and we recently had Dr. Arndt who's doing a lot of the research and also but she's more of a on the clinical side of things. So it was really cool to see and talk to her and pick her brain and what matters and what really works. So I enjoyed that. Yeah. I think it's super cool to have Dr. Arndt where we went into the details, all about the macros and kind of timing with everything. And here we kind of just had a good overview of, hey, this is kind of how we got to get back to basics sometimes, you know, not saying art was wrong with anything, right? It was a way of optimizing but this is sometimes, you know, the approach that we fail to look at is looking at what EC would say, vanilla approach. Right. Or the 30,000-foot view, right, the big overview type of question and she's really, she's huge on that big picture approach and how does it fit into what we're doing. And I think probably the best place for us to start is talking about the opportunity cost of poor nutrition, right? I mean, this is a concept that's been brought up time and time again and I think it's important for us as individuals to understand but also as clinicians, as healthcare providers we need to understand. And when we had talked about that and we asked her why it even matters, the person that she took at least how she responded said that essentially, you know, those costs that we are spending learning on what the best medications are for obesity and, you know, trying to create a new pill to try to help with these diet approaches and a lot of these healthcare ailments that we have and we struggle in the Western society with, you know, those costs can be diverted elsewhere. Like, I'm at a very large academic center, so are you. And we get a lot of these, you know, rare genetic, just rare issues and diseases that we don't have answers for and we're really far away from getting for answers for it. You know what we do have the answer for is how to get people healthy in terms of how to come about obesity, how to try to prevent cardiovascular disease and those types of things. And yeah, it's not sexy. And she had brought it again as well that the simple isn't sexy thing. But that's, you know, exercise, sleep, good nutrition, eating fruits and vegetables, eating fruits and vegetables, somebody giving you that message, there's nothing novel about that concept and that's unfortunate. But she's making it work. She's making work and she's made this really sexy approach, if you will, to a simple concept which we're going to touch on later. Right. Right. So yeah, it's funny you mentioned, you know, if we don't have all the answers and oftentimes when we look at diets, especially now in today's Western world, whether it's Instagram, social media, we have experts in keto, experts in vegan, expert plant-based, expert paleo. And oftentimes, you know, when we listen to podcasts or look at the research, it's almost like we are refuting the other side rather than just saying, hey, as EC would you call it the and approach, right? Like both things can work, a keto diet and plant-based, you know, will work. And when we talk about the research and you kind of touched upon this is that we can always find a study that will support our thesis, essentially, right? The way we think about things. And that kind of blinds us to the other side. And it's funny, right? Because we can always find a research that will support what we're thinking. So it's important for us doctors to think about things with that and statement, right? It's not going to be one way or the other. You can go low-carb, you can go low-fat. So let's stop thinking about the extreme and start combining all these things and say, hey, what is the best approach where I can take all the letters of the alphabet and make alphabet soup? Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, that's such an interesting point. And again, it's not a crazy out of left field point. But it's so this whole topic that I'd like Dr. Arndt said, it's, you know, there's a few things that are as polarizing as nutrition, right, religion, politics, and then you identify yourself with this thing. Like I said, we already know the answers, but instead all these experts, and again, I've been in that trap myself where we're busy arguing the minutiae, right? I think from an academic standpoint, it's an interesting debate. Okay. One of the hot topics that's been on social media as of late has been, you know, calories and versus calorie out versus the relatively new carbohydrate insulin model talking about, you know, hey, sugar is bad and need to look at that. Again, for the majority of population, that's not where we're failing, right? We're failing again, as we had talked about with EC, she said that what grade and 83% of the folks aren't eating Americans aren't eating enough fruits and vegetables. And I think everybody can agree that those are good for you. That's not where the debate is, right? So just to kind of touch up on that point about why I think as healthcare providers, we should care. We know that healthcare costs are higher than ever due to the disease burden, right? I don't know if you've done this recently, man, but I, I mean, I've been kind of, again, it's that enrollment period for healthcare insurance and I've been helping my parents try to get healthy. I can't, I cannot imagine it's so expensive to try to buy health insurance now. And a lot of it has to do with the premiums. They're so high, it's because depending on your comorbidities, you know, the expectation that the need is going to be high, right? I mean, and this is kind of just goes out through as generally as a country, we're getting it unhealthy and healthier. Cardium metabolic disease and obesity, they go hand in hand, right? This is this concept of diabetes, right? That's for the premise of the carbohydrate insulin model, which a long time ago, we used to think, hey, if somebody is obese and they're predisposed to diabetes, but now with the whole Jason Fong and I think Gary Tubbs talked about, hey, insulin resistance is the cause of diabetes. And again, I don't think that's where we are failing and that's the biggest problem for most people. And other issue is, okay, obesity, as of late, it's been on the news, right? Predisposition to viral illnesses, particularly COVID, right? However you feel about that situation, even in younger folks, kids, clinicians, kid, but individuals are age, right? In the 30s, even though this is initially, we thought, hey, this is an illness that's only going to get the elderly, the immunocompromised, but hey, if you are obese, you're in that category. And so again, I think that it's really worth our time and healthcare providers to kind of focus on this, particularly because I don't know where I heard it, but I just wanted to quick do a quick Google search and looked up essentially what the food advertising budget is, you know, from the food industry, right? A lot of people villainize the food industry. I know David Ludwig from Harvard and they talk about how the sugar is such an addictive thing and how it's completely hijacked the American mind. In 2017, I think this you'll find interesting, in 2017, I found out that the food advertising budget, this is economic, Donald's and all those fast food companies and restaurants, was 13.4 billion, right? Comparatively, the CDC's budget for all chronic diseases and health promotion was 1.2 billion. Isn't that mind-blowing? So who's message is going to get across? Who's voice is going to be louder, right? So that's a really unfortunate part of this situation and I think that's where our role comes in, you know, we are marketing for the CDC, we are marketing for the USDA for eating right and I think that that's healthcare professionals. It's really imperative that we do a good job and we drive that message home. I, yeah, 100% agree, man, that's a scary stat and, you know, in the episode you talked about how 41% of people are obese, that number definitely creeping up and now we're even seeing research about obesity and affecting the genes, right, epigenetics and how that's getting passed on with certain traits. So we're definitely going down this scary, scary path and you know, and this is why I love doing these episodes and trying to get these messages across to healthcare providers, you know, obviously we don't get taught that much about these topics in medical school, but hopefully, you know, by listening to Dr. Sean Orrin, by listening to EC Sinkowski, people can slowly start to realize and say, hey, you know, as a provider, I can do a better job counseling my patients by delving into the research, by getting, you know, the going into better resources and really, really making an impact. Yeah, no, I love that, man. And which kind of, I think it's a good segue into the next point that I want to ring up is, is this whole discussion between quality versus quantity, right? We, we spend a great deal of time talking to Dr. Arne, talking about timing. Again, we can all agree that that's probably not as important. In fact, EC's principles touch on all the aspects, quality, quantity and timing, but again, I mentioned that I had this, this bias that, okay, when we're looking at health, quality tends to be the most important and she said that, hey, they both are, again, using the word and, right? Quality and quantity are important and really depends because you can overdo it on the quality thing. If you're eating tons and tons of extra virgin olive oil and avocados and macadamia nuts, I mean, as healthy as they are and monon tratured, in fact, I bet you, I bet you that you can, you know, completely mess up your lipid profile and, and have it in a, in a chloric surplus and have difficulty with, with weight loss. And as a result, you're going to have some issues with cardiomedicum. I mean, it's better than eating all twinkies. I think Dr. Arne even talked about it. You can lose weight on the all twink diet. Is it best way to do it? No, it's not the best way to do it. Same thing. You can gain weight on all avocado diet. It's not the best way to do it and it's not sustainable. That's the biggest thing. That's one point that she brings about. So I think that that's something really important to understand and what I loved about her approach, which we're going to talk about in a second is, you know, she focused on the quality approach because it addresses two birds with one stone, right? Because we're loading up on all these vegetables and you take care of the volume because it's very difficult to have, like, 500 calories of broccoli or 500 calories of green bean or really any, insert any vegetable. But, you know, so these things and fruits and vegetables, they're extremely nutrient dense, but they're not chlorically dense. And so people tend to address both the quality and the quantity aspect of it and it tends to leave much, much more room for, quote unquote, crap in your diet or some of those cheat foods or whatever you want to call it. And it's really a, it's a subtraction by addition method, which is truly an elegant solution. And I kind of want to plug in this, this had talked you to call the elegant diet. I know you've seen it. So we'll post that in the social social and show notes here. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, going through these talks, talking with you is just, it's foolish for us to not think that the body can outsmart us, right? Like the body is so complex. Just because you're eating so much kale or so much broccoli, doesn't necessarily mean that the body is going to think of it as a positive all the time, right? There's so many different factors going on with environmental genetics, maybe genetics, your sleep, working out, exercise, you know, everything is playing a role. And so that's why I think we have to bring it back to that basics and say, hey, you know, and this is one of her principles, right? Your diet is not validated, right? You can't validate your diet. We're not 100% sure that, hey, even if you're eating this clean, healthy diet, you're going to win the, you know, the game of healthy aging. We have no idea. Yeah, sure. It probably helps. We're going to play her cards that way. So let's get into her approach, right? So she calls it the 800 gram challenge, right? So 800 grams of veggies and fruit in a day. And then she will also prioritize her protein based off what I believe was 0.7 grams per body weight. Yeah. And so by doing that, like you said, you're going to 800 grams. It's not necessarily super difficult, but it's not easy. You definitely have to plan ahead or you have to have enough of veggies and fruit in your fridge or wherever to make that happen. But once you do, you are going to feel fuller because you're getting those nutrient dense foods. You are going to reduce the number of calories you have by the end of the day if you stick with that. Yeah. And just for clarification purposes, I think it's a word separating because initially she rolled out the 800 gram challenge, which is kind of what you alluded to the fruits and vegetables only. The protein aspect, she added that later on calling it easy macros, right? But again, easier to do because I give, but as we know, as we talked about with David Ote, and when you want to try to implement change and you're talking about habit coaching, you don't want to give people too many different things, right? So we're talking about neurosurrosolution. And if folks are going to just, if somebody, you're meeting somebody and they're eating, like I told you, in that one study that I referenced in my analysis is people weren't even eating three servings a day, which is really 240 grams, right? If you're eating an individual who isn't getting 250 grams a day, trying to get them to 800 grams plus add 0.7 grams per body weight is going to be very challenging. So we started with one thing. And I think she chose to take the lower hanging fruit, which is 800 grams. And then add the proteins in later on. And what I love about this is, this is an actionable way to actually implement good nutrition to your life, right? All these approaches, this one is so easy to do. In fact, I've been doing it myself for, and it's very easy. And I don't always measure, sometimes I do for fun, but I like how you can use, you know, the palm of your hand, like a fist is kind of a cup, she set up to six, six, obviously depends on what size hand you have, but ballpark, you'll be okay, right? And like you said, anger grams are fruits and vegetables, and it doesn't matter if they're frozen, if they're canned, if they're organic, if they're locally sourced, you know, again, people tend to make it too complicated myself. I'm talking to myself first, I'm very guilty, I'm like, oh, you know, do I need organic? Is it part of the dirty dozen? You know, this killing of your organic, right? Is it potatoes and all these things? And sometimes we get too specific, you're focused on too detail. And it's just that whole, you know, paralysis by analysis situation, you're not getting anywhere. And you're missing the big picture, you're missing that 30,000 foot overview. So I love that she did that, and then she talks about, hey, once you do that, and then you've got that nailed down, 800 grams, you're killing it, no problems, then we can talk about the next step, right? And that's again, where the principles come in. So I mean, if you have anything to add on to that, go ahead, otherwise we can come up here. Yeah, let's go into it. The last point here about the 800 grams challenge is, you know, we live in a data heavy world, and we're all looking for data. You know, I kind of mentioned, I have a whoop. My brother's an eyewatch, you know, Apple watch and all these things, we're all looking at tracks or things. If you're looking to do that with your diet, this is such, you know, a great way of doing that to just keep it simple, keep it basic. So I just, I love the challenge. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And she even mentioned that there is a role for when, when we're talking about calculating all the macronutrients. And often, you know, usually she does the pen and paper, but sometimes she will use my fitness pal just to kind of have an idea of where she is ballpark wise. And she's, she's been doing a great job on social media. If you guys don't follow our Instagram, optimize, you need to check that out ASAP. She's been putting it on a story every single day documenting it in the last 12 days. I think she just wrapped it up, but it's been really cool. And she does a lot of resources. But so this brings us to the next point of our 10 principles, right? So I don't, I don't, I mean, these are definitely worth checking out. I recently posted it on a social media because she, she shared it and it's free. So anybody can go check it on our website or you can just quickly Google it. But just some of the ones that you've already touched on, your diet cannot be validated. But what we're talking about right now is when you start becoming more analytical with your diet, this is one of the last points, even though she said that then these are not, they're 10 principles, but they're not in any particular order. They're all equally important. And the last one that she had was there's a diminishing return on it tamed perfection. So just going back to an example, if you're an individual who is getting to, you know, from 250 grams and you've gotten up to 800 grams, and now you're like, okay, well, I'm at 15% body fat and I want to get the 10% body fat. Well, you might need to have to dial in a little bit more. You might have to get to the point seven point eight, depending on your grams of protein, depending on your activity level, perhaps you can just start focusing on your sleep. Maybe now you got to get to seven and a half eight hour, you can't compromise with six hour sleep. And then, you know, she, she, the example I think she gave was if somebody's like, I want a six pack, well, we'll talk about everything you need to do to get a six pack. And then you decide if it's worth or not. And that's when you quote unquote, pay to play, as she says. So I think that those things are really important to understand. People sometimes have these goals with these New Year's resolutions or really anytime. But they don't necessarily want to pay to play or they don't want to have skin in the game. And so I think that one is really important. And this is something that I was able to appreciate working with bodybuilders and, and having some really close friends who were in that kind of busy competitive range. I have so much respect for them. Because again, I've all, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting to look good. Absolutely. By all means, that's your goal. By all means, if you want a six pack, okay, let me try to help you get there. But it's not easy. I mean, for some folks, it is, right? But like David said, I can't eat a pizza and then expect to still have the things back. Yeah. Now, exactly, man, you just cannot let perfection be the enemy of the good, right? And I am totally guilty of that, you know, trying to be someone who's trying to be that's so called expert, right? And in this whole field, when it comes to me helping my patients, but oftentimes, like, it's just sometimes you, you can't delve into the research so heavily and then just rely on that, right? It comes down to, sure, read it, understand it, see what the mechanisms are, the bio, you know, like the biochem, but oftentimes I think for like the general public, we just have to be more balanced and just start there. And, you know, from there, you start to build a little bit more in terms of what you know about, you know, your genes start to get like 23 in me, for example, and then you start to build vitamin D. Let's see what I, you know, do I need to supplement with certain things? But you have to have a solid base. And that just comes, I think, you know, again, for the 800 grams challenge or just a balanced approach. Yeah. And I love that. And to that point, I mean, you hadn't done your 23, I mean, you got that raw data until recently, when we had talked about it, right? And this is important. I think this is a really important concept for people to understand because you've been, you've been kind of at this journey for years and years and years, right? You've been driven, try to optimize your own health and, you know, you take your sleep habits seriously. You try to stay away from a screen time and you do all the right things. And well, I'm sure you have lots of it. I'll try to go to a lot. But you try, right? I mean, it's kind of your craft to try to do that. And it's really difficult to go from zero to 100, right? I mean, that's just a recipe for failure. I think it is worth quickly, just mentioning the principles that that's cool with you. I do have some time. Again, no particular order, but what I want people to take away from this is that none of these are actual specific food recommendations. They're kind of her general philosophies, but, but they're really cool. So first one, the quantity of food you eat in calories determines your weight, right? So again, we're talking about quality, a quantity being important, not necessarily the most important. Number two, the quantity, excuse me, the quality of food you eat in macronutrients determines your body. No, it's still quantity. I'm sure eating wrong. The quantity of food you eat in macronutrients determines your body composition. So calories, weight, macros, body composition, and there are two separate things. And for those just body weight versus body fat percentage, that's the one waiter to define body comp. Timing only matters to the extent if it affects quantity, right? And that's all her point about intermittent fasting, not necessarily, you know, being more beneficial for weight loss. The quality of food as determined by micronutrient density. And I know you want to talk about this. Did the rinse your health? Here's, here's probably one of my most favorite ones goes back to the end concept. It's never one thing. It's never one thing. It's not the one X variable that's going to be the, the end all be off everything. The next one all diets control quantity to varying levels of precision. Here's another one super important. We've been talking about a lot of sustainability is the most important factor in diet selection. And when she talks about diet and somebody says, Hey, I'm going to get on this diet. She asks, can you do this for six months? Can you do this for a year? And the person says, I'm not really sure if I can stick with it for a year, then then maybe that's not the one for you. Maybe you need to find something. And again, her elegant solution of trying to do 800 grams. That's pretty sustainable. It's easier to do. And the next one, the universal diet problem is processed foods. There's no debate there. Doesn't matter which camp you're in, nutrition camp you're in. There's no debate there. Second, last one, your diet cannot be validated. You've touched on this a couple of times. And then the last one, as we already touched on, they're diminishing returns, entertaining perfection. So highly encouraged people to go check that out. Again, these are just principles and what I love about what she had mentioned is she's willing to change her mind as these get better. And she kind of had touched on that too. So yeah, cool. So let's go. Let's go through the micronutrient stuff, right? So we asked EC about this and said, Hey, you know, what she talks about a lot about the macros and that's what, you know, we kind of learned, you know, with the with the government and what they kind of preached from the beginning with a certain number of carbohydrates per percentage of fats. But now we're seeing this boom in so many people preaching, Hey, make sure your vitamin D is optimal. Make sure your selenium is good. Your iron levels, your magnesium, your copper, whatever it may be. There's like, right, all these micronutrients that we're starting to see on social media, people post and say, Hey, this is how you get this. This is how you get that. But is that necessarily super important to get, you know, more so than your macros, right? And we were talking to EC about this and she said, well, you know, if you're having a balanced approach, there's no reason why your micronutrients would be low in anything. So in that sense, it might not be worth getting those lab tests unless, hey, right, you might be vitamin D. I think, okay, maybe, right? That's that's one that we're starting to see maybe some more research on and stuff and definitely needs even more research to really see. Is there really any benefit of what not? But I think, you know, that was just a great point, especially, you know, me being very interested in functional medicine. This is something that a lot of providers do is that they start to look at your micronutrients. But what's the approach, right? The approach would be, hey, eat more diverse plants and food. Nothing changes, right? It's like, it's kind of like what we do in, in, in PM and R, right? If we're not, we're not going to get an additional test, unless it's going to change our plan. Or really any aspect of medicine, not necessarily. Right. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, we use the MSK approach, but I mean, that's true for neurology. That's true for getting chest x-rays, whatever it might be. So yeah, I agree with you. I think that in one of our previous episodes, just maybe our conversations, you had talked about, forget who it was, doesn't recommend necessarily taking a multivitamin, as long as you're having a balanced, a diverse type of feeders, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the key word, right? As long as you have a balanced depression nutrition, if you're eating all meat, diet, or all plant diet, there's going to be some things you're going to be missing. And we learn about that in medical school, right? We learn about nutrition, you know, mineral and vitamin deficiencies. And the issues that they can call it. So yeah, I do think that it comes back to that pendulum. You know, that's my favorite analogy is we just swing back and forth, right? So somewhere in the middle is the right answer. And it's never one thing, as EC says. So I think that the best probably way for us to kind of close it off is to talk about how we can influence change, right? So EC is doing it her way with 800 gram challenge, lazy macros. And, you know, we've had some of these experts come on and talk about what they think are important and explain the science and offer their expertise. But what can we take away from this? What does you take away from it, Darshan, some of our colleagues? And how can we not only help our patients change and get better and improve, but also our loved ones? Yeah, you know, it's funny because after talking to her, I definitely am going to change my approach to patients and loved ones, you know, and I think the way I was doing it before was me thinking I'm an expert in this field and people are going to listen to me. So I can kind of just jump right in and say, Hey, you need to read this book or check out this research paper. This is what, you know, I learned it yesterday. And this is why I'm doing this thing. And that's overwhelming for people who aren't in the field. And so, you know, handing them over an abstract of a research paper and saying, Hey, look at this. And then if you're interested, go fully into it. That's not going to work, right? Like, I know for my, my family or me, it would work for me. But that's what I learned is I need to stay quiet for a little bit and observe and see what's the best way to approach like my loved ones or my patients. And I think I was actually just thinking about this like five minutes ago. For my father, it's probably reading a book, he's more academic. For my mom, it probably has to do more so with like the social aspect or, or family aspect and, you know, living longer, things like that. For my brother, it might be a combination of the both, right? So it's slowing down and thinking, Hey, what's the best way I can influence this person? But then also realizing self-actualization is key, right? They're not going to want to change until they want to change. But that doesn't mean you, you know, stop completely. You still have to have that open, open, talk with them and keep that avenue open in case they say, Hey, I'm ready to change now. What should I do? You're all right. Great. Here's my, here's my chance to give, you know, that impact. Yeah, I love that, man. And I think this is so complicated because eating habits are deep rooted in beliefs, right? Right. There's politics to the matter. There's religious aspects they need to be considered of. You know, there are their emotions. We get this massive dopamine hit and these neurotransmitters get fired up when we're eating the different types of foods. And there are some social implications too, right? In terms of how people socialize and eat in parties and those kinds of things. So it is very challenging and you need to be considered in all those things. The other interesting thing that made me kind of just take a step back is, she mentioned that, you know, most people already know what's healthy and unhealthy. We've always known fruits and vegetables are good, right? Our parents know that you shouldn't be eating donuts all the time. The same thing with patients and significant others. Adults have that insight. Children, maybe you kind of need to teach them a little bit, but adults have that insight. So I think you touched on, you really have to wait for that opportunity. And this reminded me of that one case as Simone, when she was there, but way back in our first episode, she, I think, gave this anecdote of a patient which she was seeing for Neck pain. He was talking about how when he tried to lift up his arm to smoke a cigarette, he wasn't able to something of that regard. And then she said, way, way, way, and she took that opportunity and she said, let's pause there because you brought this up clearly for a reason. So maybe, you know, you use that opportunity. But again, as you said, I want to emphasize, you don't want to jump in all in and get that person to step back, right? Because that person's stepping forward to meet you, you want to take one step forward. You don't want to pounce in that moment because you're going to scare that person off, especially with something that's polarizing and complicated as this. And another important thing in one of the things that she had mentioned episode was that maybe you're wrong. Maybe intermittent fasting isn't the answer. Maybe we don't have a complete understanding of the science, which we've talked about before. You know, today we think that, again, if you had talked to me 10 years ago, a man, I was like, everybody, we should be using coconut oil for everything. Right? And now I'm like, well, maybe not. Maybe not for everything, right? It's a little bit better. And so, you know, that's an important point to understand as well. So I think some of the, some of the, the ones that we had talked about, not to do it, don't jump in. Don't freak out. And another thing that she says, don't freak out if it's your loved ones. Because the body is pretty resilient, like despite eating the sad diet, Americans are living to close to 76, 70, 78 years old. I mean, that's pretty impressive, right? And I know in the blue zones that they're getting up to 100 and 1 and every 4 individuals, but, you know, so that's, that's impressive. So we have some time to make this change. So earlier on, so this kind of brings a full circle. You talked about leading by example, doing the whole walk in the walk, and you know, make sure we do that. Again, shout out to you because you do this and you do a great job documenting this on your social. And like you already said, just want to drive home that point. You want to use the small windows for conversations, but give them bite size. So those are some really important points. Absolutely. Can you agree more? Yeah. Anything else meant any last minute closing thoughts? No, man, I'm just, I'm super pumped that we're doing this. You know, just like all these gues we're having here. I'm learning a lot. I'm hoping the listeners are learning a lot too. I just think there's a lot of value that we're getting from these guests. So we'll just keep it rolling, keep it going. Love it, man. Yeah, so guys, I highly recommend check out ECCinkowski on Optimize Miniotrition. You can go check her out on our website obviously. You know, you'll get a lot of the resources that we had mentioned, even though we're going to plug them in in our social notes. But you can check those out for free. Oh, another thing she's got that the Consistency Tracker, which is really cool. It's basically, you know, checking to see if you have met the the 8-hring gram challenge for the day. If you've gotten, I think seven hours of sleep, she has in there. And if you've exercised and exercise is really defined as anything, but she explains it really well in the video. So highly recommend you guys do that. If you want some accountability, it's to be part of kind of a community. And I think we all look for that camaraderie. So that's cool. And then, yeah, I mean, hopefully she'll come back on again. I know that there's so many more questions that I want to pick her brain on. She was limited on time this time. But we're looking forward to that. In the meantime, guys, if you guys have any questions from this, you know, please feel free to reach out. Both Darce and I on social media were pretty active. So we're happy to take that. You can reach us to us via email, you know, medredefinedatgmail.com. If you have any questions or anything else that you're interested in, that you want to learn more about, you know, we're happy to kind of try to bring on guests to answer some of your questions and and keep educating that's what it's all about. And that's what we're doing it. Absolutely. All right, peace. This podcast was brought to you by contract diagnostics. This is a company that specializes in contract reviews. Specialization is something we can all appreciate here. So again, when you or your family have contract needs, give them a call. They'll help you understand your contract and make sure it lines up with your interest and protect the assets that you covet most. Your time and family. Find them at drpodcastnetwork.com slash contract diagnostics or call 8-8-574-5526. Now, for that important disclaimer, please remember that everything in this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not cost you the practice of medicine, nor should it be construed as medical advice. No physician patient relationship is formed and anything discussed in this podcast does not represent the views of our employers. If you enjoyed the content of this show, please be sure to subscribe, share, and review. Thank you so much.