86. Infusing Ayurvedic Wisdom into Modern Life | Shivani Gupta, PhD

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined. A podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in health care. Our guest today is Dr. Shavani Gupta. Shavani is a researcher, entrepreneur, author, and advocate for Ayurvedic Medicine. She obtained her bachelor's of business administration from Babson College. Subsequently, she went on to complete her master's and PhD in Ayurvedic Sciences. She is an expert in blending the science of Ayurvedic wisdom into modern life and is CEO of Fusionary Formulas. In this episode, we discuss Shavani's introduction to Ayurvedic Medicine, which ultimately led her to pursuing her doctorate in turmeric or curcumin, fascinating. As I mentioned, her research and educational studies, along with her personal story, inspired her to become an entrepreneur. So she also explains the genesis of her supplement company. It's likely that many of you have never heard of Ayurvedic Medicine, and if that's the case, then you're about to be enlightened. With her research background, we of course talk a lot about curcumin, but also touch on some other commonly used supplements that are mainstream today, as it pertains to herbal and Ayurvedic medicine. You'll notice that we discuss an inclusive approach when it comes to all these exogenous compounds. I think when chatting about Western versus Eastern medicine, rather than saying either or, we'd be better off using the word and, in addition to where, when, why, and maybe even how. You might pick up on that in our conversation as well. We close by getting Shavani's thoughts on the future of supplements and the integration of Ayurvedic Medicine into, well, just medicine. Okay, without further delay, please enjoy the episode. Shavani, welcome to the show. Thank you. You know, it's so nice to finally sit down with you. I've been excited for this conversation as kind of what we're talking about offline before we hit record here for a couple of reasons, you know, one of the main reasons is I'm a big fan of curcumin, or as we call it, healthy, and, you know, anybody who is South Asian really knows what I'm referring to. And, you know, for a variety of reasons, that's something that's taken more and more mainstream attention and for, again, different ailments. So I'm excited to go down the pathway and really nerd out and understand what the literature has to say about that. You're like the first person I know. I don't even know you could do a PhD in that, so that's fascinating. And secondly, I'm excited because, you know, maybe this will be the first episode that my parents will listen to after they know that I'm talking about turmeric and curcumin a little bit in detail. So, with that, before we start talking about that, you have so many other things to offer that we can touch on. I'd love to kind of have you share a little bit of your journey and maybe just talk about how it is that you got to where you are and in this place of wearing so many different hats. Sure. Thank you. I, you know, being South Asian, I grew up in the U.S. born in Texas and I always noticed that when I had an ailment or an issue, my grandma would reach for one toolkit and my parents would reach for a different one. My parents would say, oh, let's go to run a CVS, target, let's run to the pediatrician, let's go buy whatever you need, you'll be fixed. Versus if my grandparents were visiting, it was healthy, it was turmeric, it was cumin seeds, it was hinkabani, which was like a favorite solution for us. And I always thought, okay, well, why is it that we're all reaching into different toolkits and every time I went to India every year to visit family, I would get disastrously sick. And I kept thinking, well, how come I have this system that's not supported and all of you guys get to enjoy India, eat the street food, enjoy everything, but I'm kind of left behind sick as a dog at home. And so eventually by college, I kind of hit a turning point with that through high school, it had so many colds and coughs taken so much augmenting, so many antibiotics back then and probably still today in some offices. The theory was, oh, you have a cold, here's a prescription, here's a prescription, just keep taking stronger antibiotics. And so by the time I hit college, I kind of had like a gut that was destroyed. They were giving me stronger and stronger antibiotics for any issues. And I remember at one point in India, I was seeing a doctor goop theft and they weren't sure. And I was like, what's the hospital, she's so dehydrated, something's got to give. And I looked at him and I said, why are you giving me 12 different drugs? Just tell me what you're doing here because I'm going to consume this, I'm going to pay the price. And he was so appalled, everyone in the room got appalled that I would dare say that to a physician in India. And I was like, listen, he's a person, I'm a person, I really have to understand what's going to happen here because I can't keep living like this. And he's like, well, these are all for symptoms. And I said, well, let's try this again. I think we're in land of India, we have yoga, we have Ayurveda, we have other systems of health. Can we try anything else here? Can anyone give me any creative approach? That was kind of that moment of, I'm going to have to go figure this one out for myself because the system you're using happens to not be working for my body. Like, I just need a different approach. And I kind of reached back into Ayurveda's tools. My grandma made me hinkabani. I started using turmeric more. I started studying Ayurveda in India very consciously and intentionally. And that's where I kind of discovered, wow, this is a system of medicine that has tons of incredible solutions for us. It's just so complex that it's hard to market to anyone in the West. It's so complex, it's hard to explain, it's hard to package, it's not as convenient. So if you can't walk to the corner store and pick up a solution that solves your problem instantly, you know, people think you're not going to reach an Ayurveda. And so that put me on the journey. So once I finished college, in college, I studied business and social entrepreneurship. I was on this track of what can I invent to change the world? And I tried to build an Ayurvedic oil company, totally failed. I tried to build an organic cotton children's clothing company to reduce plastic, to reduce insecticide and pollution in the earth that failed. But I was just on this journey of how do I solve problems while solving my own health issues? And that's when I was like, okay, maybe if I study this in more depth, I'll get the answers. So I did my masters in Ayurvedic sciences. And then my advisor really told me and advised me to do a PhD. He's like, listen, you have time, your children are young, take the deep dive. And Turmeric, out of all of the herbs and spices out there, was so fascinating to me because of my own health issues. And then also because of my family history. Every time I went to India, someone was suffering from the advanced ages of diabetes. And I thought, wow, we work so hard in our lifetimes to build success and build these great lives. And then all crumbles and falls apart at the end because of chronic disease. So where's that preventative opportunity here where we can kind of stop that and extracts? And inflammation definitely was of interest to me. So I finished my PhD and I became a total evangelist of Turmeric the Spice. And my whole in-law family around me in South Florida, including my husband, my closest brother-in-law, they're all surgeons. And so I was like, oh, you're dealing with joint pain? Turmeric can solve that. Oh, you're seeing inflammation in the eye? Turmeric can solve that. Whatever they were seeing, I was like, I think Turmeric can solve everything you're saying. And they said, you're really going to be a crazy evangelist, you should build a supplement. And so I did. And that's where I am now. I've built a turmeric supplement. I built it for physicians, medical grade in terms of potency. And it's been my job for seven years to constantly prove what turmeric can do in the body. I wanted us to be so potent that physicians could use it in their toolkit alongside all their other tools and start using a natural Ayurvedic option instead of the prescription option or alongside, happy to be alongside. And then now we're in clinical research, which is really cool. Like we're going to really prove with science what I've seen anecdotally over the last seven years with our 100 doctors. And now I get to do both. I get to be fusionary in my supplement company, but I also wanted people to apply the lifestyle medicine aspect of Ayurveda and not let turmeric just become a pill for a problem, but understand that diet, lifestyle, circadian, rhizome, sleep, inflammation, inflammatory lifestyle can also be profound in their lives. Would you mind defining for those who don't know what that term or that even means? Sure. So Ayurveda is a system of medicine and health and healing from India that's over 5,000 years old. So just like we have naturopathic medicine, homeopathic medicine, chiropractic, all these different systems, traditional Chinese medicine, in India, we've had our own system and that system encompasses detoxification, nutrition, circadian rhythm, diet, lifestyle. It's a very preventive system and the whole goal is body, mind, and spirit in alignment. And there's so many ancient texts, I have the ancient texts here that talk about surgery and systems of medicine, obstetrics and all these things. So we really believe it's like the precursor between, you know, before all of medicine came through the way it did. Awesome. And so, you know, what's interesting that at least in this country where we practice in the West, that anything that's outside the scope of traditional medicine is just labeled complimentary alternative medicine. And so you touched on a few of those, but what are some of the main principles of Ayurveda that differentiated from, let's just say, integrated medicine or naturopathic medicine like you talked about or homeopathic medicine? Are there some key differentiating factors? Sure. So what I find beautiful is there's a lot of similarities. You know, there's a lot of similarities between naturopathic medicine and Ayurvedic medicine especially. In homeopathic medicine, they're going to reach for essences of plants in an entirely different way than we do in Ayurveda. In Ayurveda, we're going to approach things looking at the root cause. And we're going to diagnose, in a sense, using thoseha's. And thoseha's are people's individual mind body constitution. So we use tools like pulse diagnosis, tongue analysis. We give a dosha quiz. I can look at people usually and understand what their mind body constitution is. And based on that, we can diagnose or understand what their underlying history is, what their underlying health issues may be, what the precursors are, why they are, where they are, what they need to balance. So Ayurveda uses the dosha as a diagnostic tool, I would say, and a tool for a lifestyle preventive medicine. We use a lot of nature. So like naturopathic medicine and some of the other systems, part of how we're going to help people is say, use nature and harness the power of nature. We use plants, herbs and spices differently than most systems, I would say. You know, in the Indian household, we have something called a misalda honey, that spice box that we cook from. So that plus some of the other spices that we use alongside, we use those as medicine. We literally say, oh, you have a problem. Let me make a tea for you. Oh, you have a problem. I'll put more in your food. Oh, you have a problem. I'll cook it and make you eat this by the spoon full. But those tools that we have seem rudimentary and simplistic, but they're very profoundly effective. And so that's what I find the most fascinating is how can we find and harness the potent power of super herbs and super spices, just like we in the West look at super foods. Ayurveda has so much research and foundation in using those different tools to support us. Now, when you talk about herbs and spices, kind of make me hungry and you use the term doshas, which is not to be confused with dosas for all the soundings out there who aren't thinking about all the herbs and spices that you were mentioning. But, you know, I did a quick Google search about these doshas and it seems like it has to do with the elements as well. And you just mentioned that you can also kind of look at somebody and kind of figure out. From what I think from what I read, there's about the re of them that doshas and then you're kind of characterized and that kind of talks about your circadian rhythm. Do you mind kind of just digging a little bit deeper into that and exactly what those doshas are? Sure. Yes. And I just finished building a dosha quiz that spits out the answer to you with results on my website because I was like, this is such a big topic of interest. I want people to understand their dosha immediately and then get ways to balance it because the minute you balance it and feel better, you're going to resonate with how true this actually is. So within Ayurveda, the three doshas are vata, vitta and kafa. And vata is space and air, vitta is fire with water and kafa is earth with water. So those elements kind of dominate the physical traits, the mental emotional traits, the imbalances and balances that people have. So I'll give you an example, vitta, which I think both of you are probably more vitta dominant. A vitta person is fire. That is entrepreneurial, go getter, hardworking, ambitious, sharp, someone who's going to like go after their goals, someone who's going to be consistent. The negative aspect of a vitta person is when you're out of balance, it's the negative traits of a fire. It can over burn, it can burn out, it can cause a force fire, it can explode. So vitta has to manage themselves because they can get angry, frustrated, jealous, they can be destructive in their relationships with that anger. And so it's just important, or they can get burnt out and quit on their goal, to cool the system, cool the jets, drink that coconut water, less tea, yogurt, certain fruit is very cooling to the system. And when you do that, all of a sudden you're in balance again. And then that's it, you're fine. So I like to give the quick and easy tools, there's a lot more, there's like vitta should go to cold places in the summer and those kinds of things, but I like to keep it simple. I like that. So now are you looking at physical characteristics to determine that? Now obviously if there's a quiz we're going to be delving into personality, but when you did kind of just that quick look on us, what exactly are you looking for in that? So a vitta person is super thin, super wiery, long oval face, they can kind of be more bony, like almost looking emaciated at times. So vitta, if they're that far into that spectrum, are easy to classify that way. Guffa people are more broad shoulder, kind of heavy set of the earth, maybe more of a square face, because they're like a, almost like warrior class, like they're just heavier into the earth, which has all of its own positives and negatives. And vitta's are in the middle. Very cool, very cool. I do want to touch on something that you mentioned earlier, which is how are you there can be the precursor, right? These ancient texts. And I think this will set us up, you know, later in our talk here, do you think are you made us still exist, let's say, as we continue the development of science and medicine, is that precursor still there or where did that art become lost? Which way do you see it? That's a good question. So you know, I or Vitta was here for thousands of years. I think sometimes new methodologies come along. And because they are new and shiny and effective, we look at them and say, all right, well, that's the way. We kind of saw that in India, where I or Vitta was there, homeopathy was there, people love homeopathic medicine there, and then and energy medicine and so many other systems yoga as its own science. And then alapacic medicine came along and everyone's like, oh, I or Vitta sucks, let's just shove it to the side. We're going to build all hospitals, you should become a real doctor, Western medicine rules, that's it. And now you see the turning back, all of a sudden society saying actually both are fantastic. We totally need alapacic medicine. It rules in all these areas of medicine, we need surgery, we need all that stuff. Thank you for saving lives. And then it's saying, hey, but there's a lot of things that are kind of small, chronic, preventive, pregnancy, fertility. There's so many areas where I or Vitta can be a very powerful tool and has a different toolkit. And I want to reach for the more natural solutions. So I think both are coexisting beautifully. And I think the return to nature, the return to I or Vitta is very powerful. And I'm seeing that happen a lot in functional medicine, because functional medicine is coming out strong right now in the West at least. And doctors are saying, okay, well, I want other tools in my toolkit, I'm open, but I need them to be science-based. And so as we're seeing over time, science and scientific research is proving different aspects of Ayurvedic Medicine to be scientifically valid or true. Like in this moment, science is proving that circadian medicine is true. And we're like, yes, we know that, but thank you for proving it in your way, cool. Now they're going to prove, I think they're going to prove how dosias are actually totally tied to blood type and certain disease pathologies and pathways. So there's a lot more science to come. We're seeing it in the herbs and spices. We have over 6,000 scientific studies on curcumin. But I think we'll see so much more on Ashwagandha and all the other spices as well. That's interesting. We tend to do that a lot, right? It's like when we get a new toy, you want to completely abandon the one there you were playing with before we're entertained by. And I think it would be much better off if we just took the best of all the different philosophies, different tools as you spoke about and applied them to the context, right? Every one of those philosophy strategies, if you will, has a place. And you know, what we talk about here is context over content all the time. It's a very, very critical things that you're talking about. The other thing that stuck out to me is when you're mentioning for the different dishes, the physical traits, when I think about, you know, in my background, learning about physique competitors and we kind of characterize people's physical traits as like ectomorps or endomorps or mesomorps a little bit, right? And as you describe them, that, you know, kind of reminds me of that. And so something that you mentioned at the very beginning, you know, it's much more important to find the commonalities between these quote unquote different approaches. And that's probably where most of the successful people are going to be. That's probably how we're going to get the best bang for buck, if you will, rather than looking for where the disagreement is because maybe that's not the place to kind of argue. Unfortunately, that is where most of the attention is and that's how you kind of get big, if you will. So speaking of the new things, right, you touched on how research is a is a newer clinical, clinical research is interested viewers and how you're helping push the bounds. I'm familiar with when it comes to turmeric and curcumin, especially in the research for pain and musculoskeletal medicine, that kind of stuff that we're talking about offline. But I'd love to hear from you because you're entrenched in this literature is what are some of the specific pathologies ailments where the evidence that we have as we define it today is the best. Sure, good question. So I'll put my PhD hat on and take the supplement hat off for a moment. Curcumin as an ingredient. So out of all of turmeric, only 3% is the curcumin out of that 3%, only one curcumin is the most effective at reducing inflammation. And curcumin is only that effective when we put it with black pepper or a healthy fat. So in my case, I like black pepper. Many people choose the healthy fat roots. You can always just eat it with food that has fat in it and you'll get that benefit. But what I love is when it comes to arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, I have seen such profound results in patients. I have doctors like orthopedic surgeons. I have a lot of sports doctors and they all tell me look, Shavani, my patient was having such hand pain. I did stem cell treatments. I did everything. They were taking other anti-inflammatories and prescription anti-inflammatories. They've now come off of them because curcumin worked for them. I have a lot of people who say to me, I used to have to, like, I used to have to take the elevator. Couldn't walk up the stairs. And taking a curcumin totally helped me not have to take the elevator anymore. I can travel again. I can walk again. I can wake up without my joint pain really limiting me from going to be mobile and doing exercise. So the stories are really interesting. And what I find cool is yes, it'll help with all those joint pain type of issues. Is it a miracle pill? No. You know, it can help people get from an eight to a two in pain. This sometimes depends on people's digestion and people's absorption. That can kind of create an element of uncertainty. Some people share it doesn't help at all. Like, I have a very tiny percentage with they'll say, I don't feel anything. I'm like, okay, I don't know where your absorption is or I don't know if maybe this spice isn't the one for you. But let's keep looking at if you do use an herb like curcumin or an ingredient, then can this plus an anti-inflammatory diet really significantly reduce that chronic joint pain that you're suffering with? But what I find cool is when people are using this, it kind of opens their mind like, okay, you made me feel better. Now I can be more mobile. I can get out there or you kept my functionality in my hands. You let me use my back more. Now what else can I do? It kind of sets them on that path to, you know, being more mobile, quality of life, living their life again in a way that they weren't. Do we have a sense of that pain relief, especially in the conditions you mentioned? Is that more of an anti-inflammatory benefit or is it, you know, exclusively pain or isolated pain? I know sometimes it's hard to disentangle this, but do we know? Yeah, I mean, the science shows that it's a very powerful anti-inflammatory and it is reducing that inflammation across the system. It is supporting people as an immune modulator as well. It's also a powerful antioxidant. So that's what the research shows. No, I love that. And, you know, what you spoke about, I want to say that almost every single non-stable anti-inflammatory, so for those who don't know, things like I be profaned and approximate that kind of stuff, that comes with a black box warning and we get so many patients. I mean, this is like bread and butter, right? And most patients have either a user if they haven't used it. Often people have things like GERD, right, which is reflux, or say I might have kidney issues, blood pressure issues, and those are contraindications, sometimes relative contraindications. To my knowledge, this is a great option for those folks kind of what you spoke about. Now, what's really, really important is dose, right? So now, I think back to my parents who, just again, growing up, same thing, you talked about your grandma, I'm an immigrant here, right? So my parents, they're coming in here, so when I get beat up in football, I'd come home. Actually, the first real application of it is after breaking my finger and my dad just put, made a little paste out of it and started putting it. And I'm like, I'm not really sure he heals fractures. And you know, my trainer wasn't really excited. My coach wasn't really excited to hear that story. It didn't work in that instance, by the way. You know, actually, I want to ask, is there a topical application ever for it that you're aware of? There is. Turmeric is very powerful as a supplement. Turmeric is very powerful, topically as well. It's just messy, so no one wants to deal with it in that way. Yeah, my finger was yellow for a week. Yeah, yeah, I don't like that. But, but going back to that, you know, what they would do is, as you mentioned, they would go the milk, right? Put it in the milk. It doesn't taste bad, actually, but I would always come back it. And now, after learning the science, you know, fast forward to college and really getting to this, I would say, okay, you know, is it half a teaspoon? How do you know what the dose is, right? And then we talked about the bioviliability stuff like that. So what it is for specifically for RA, rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, you know, those musculoskeletal aches and pains, what's the dose that we know is a sweet spot for folks? So the science shows that 500 milligrams of curcumin plus 4 milligrams of black pepper extract is an ideal combination. It's, we have thousands of science, that thousands of studies that show that that's a good combo. And so people have doubled that to two doses a day because curcumin has a fast uptake and then it's out of the system. So morning and afternoon, that's typically a dose that's recommended. And when I tell my parents it's like, and I keep going, but it's not all about me, but the true, tried and true folks who were coming from South Asia, they'll say, oh, but that's not like the real stuff, right? You got to take the powder form. Do we know what that translates into? Maybe in grams or teaspoon or something like that? Do you know anything about that? I do. So what's interesting is in India, we don't use raw turmeric much. We'll use it as a pickle, but we don't eat that. You can take raw turmeric and you dry it and you get turmeric the spice, the powdered turmeric. And yes, Indians are very attached to their powdered turmeric being the most effective way to do things. And it's so funny to me because here in the West, everyone's like, I juice it. Every day I juice it. I'm like, you were buying $13 raw turmeric and juicing it with no black pepper, no healthy fat. You might as well juice a radish. Like what are you trying to accomplish? But people really believe in that. They believe in their juice shots. They want to juice regular raw turmeric and regular raw ginger. Yes, does that have some benefits? Sure. But when I'm talking to people, I'm talking to people who are going to the orthopedic surgeon. They are in a lot of pain. They went to the last stop. They're like, I went to doctors, I needed someone who to who to basically could operate me on me and cut me open. And I was hoping for a non-operative solution. But I know that I might be at surgery store and need replacements and all those things. So the thing is regular turmeric raw, let's say it's a little effective. The spice turmeric definitely more effective. And I think as Indians, we have a dosage in us pretty much at all times if you eat a fresh Indian diet. Like in my household, we cook fresh Indian food five days a week. So yeah, technically I have turmeric in my system half the day, most days of the week. But my argument to people is we are living a very different life than we did thousands of years ago. Water qualities, little different. Air quality, little different. Level of toxicity and pollutants all around us at all times, little different. Pesticide load on the body, little bit different than the past as well. Stress is mental stresses of living in modern day society, very different. So I believe that the inflammation that we are encountering in our bodies and struggling with, which is like the root cause of most diseases, is a problem. And it's going to take a little bit of a higher dose or potency to touch that and to get our bodies the support it needs. And in my case, I had an issue once where I threw out my back and I did take all sorts of NSAIDs and anti-inflammatories and it really was rough on my stomach. It took me weeks to heal from that. And I thought, well, I took something that benefited me. Thank you for getting me out of pain. But then why did I have to pay a price? Like, let's get rid of that price tag of pain and damage and other systems of the body. And so that's where I found my research on curcumin to be so powerful. If turmeric extracts curcumin that 1 or 2% that you pull out of it can be that much more effective on the body, here we have a really potent natural solution for all of us. And so when I calculated it back in the day, it takes a mason jar of regular turmeric powder, which you can imagine a mason jar is like one and a half times probably a cup, two cups, took equal what's in a two week supply of a potent curcumin settlement. So it would take any normal person a really long time to get through a full bag of turmeric powder because you can't overdo it in your cooking, that's gross. Versus, you can just have that potent extract in your system day night, day night and consistently reduce the inflammation in the body. Yeah, so that's how I look at it. Perfect. I did want to transition too because I know there's a lot of data talking about lipids, right? And for it going to be talking about turmeric and illness, cardiovascular disease being that number one kind of risk factor that we're seeing more and more, what can turmeric be doing for cardiovascular disease and lipids in particular? So curcumin is a vasodilator. It does gently thin the blood. And so anyone who's on a blood thinner, like Cumin in, we tell them not to take it at all, just to play it safe. I think there's going to be a lot of research coming forward over the next couple of years, maybe a couple decades, but I'm trying to move it all up into a few years on all the impacts curcumin can have on the different systems. I have someone who reached out to me who does NIH research who wants to do neostrathritis with curcumin. So we're already moving that one forward. Then they want to look at retinal diseases and the impact of curcumin on all the inflammation disease in the eye, but then the question is does it reach the eye? Can it go into that small of a space? Does it reach that far? But with heart health, I definitely think, you know, anyone who needs to be taking a healthy anti-inflammatory could be taking curcumin regularly as their baseline support. And then monitor. Monitor closely with your doctor, monitor with those blood work and that research. I was just going to ask you where are you most excited about where the research is going, but it seems like it's multi-system, multi-organ. So I don't where is there anything in particular that you're most excited about to see where research is? Yeah, so when I was doing my PhD dissertation, I had two things in my conclusion that I really hope I get to see in my lifetime. One is telomeres. So there's very little research on curcumin and how it expands telomeres for longevity. And longevity is such a hot topic and everyone teaches those 50 ways to have longevity. I really think curcumin can be that investment in anti-aging and staying our youngest and youthful and most healthy self over time. So I want to see studies on that. So if I can, I will be investing in that study myself because I want to know the answer. And then the other is turmeric with black pepper versus a healthy fat. I never encountered science proving which one was better, which makes me think someone in industry did it but never published. So I'm curious. And I will one day find find a way to prove that one. I love that. Shivani, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up this point because I think, you know, again, all of us may be implicitly a little biased just because of our background and it's just within our roots, right? So we're familiar with this. But somebody who this might be a little bit novel too and isn't as familiar with it, isn't part of their culture. There might be a bit more reluctance to accept this, right? I'll share an anecdote with you. I think this was when I was in medical school and we were in the brain injury unit and we had a patient who had a brain tumor. We were working with the neuro oncologist at the time. Now, this patient had read a host of benefits for inflammation and all the therapeutic properties have curcumin. And, you know, when you have a diagnosis such as cancer, especially something like that, you are, you're kind of reaching for everything, right? And this individual had been taking so much that they actually their skin pigmentation was turning more and more yellow, right? And now, the concerning thing was that sometimes, you know, they would be like, I'm, you know, if I can do this, I don't need to be on some certain medications that are tried and true. We talked about, hey, they do a great job, same lives. And so I'm wondering, what's your message or how do you visit that conversation? I mean, you're clearly passionate about this. You're well versed in the science. You know where it's applicable, where it's not. But the average individual who might listen to an hour of this discussion or read a little bit about it or hair by the social media, Google or whatever, they don't know how to parse out the good versus the bad literature. How do you have that conversation with those folks? Sure. So I meet with physicians all day. My whole job year round is to find the doctor, get into that doctor's office and talk to them. And usually they look at me like, great, you're just a rep of another thing who's going to try to sell me another thing. And usually I make sure the person who introduces me say, hey, her peach is on turmeric. And that's usually novel enough that they laugh because they've never heard such a funny thing. And that's usually my opening. And I'm like, listen, there's so many super foods out there. There's blueberries. We talk about Sam and we talk about omega-3s. We know that a lot of our population is vitamin and mineral deficient. I think we can all imagine that because we have a population that's suffering with all these various issues, sometimes giving them something supplemental can be helpful. Now I know that there's so much fear around supplements because we've even had Wall Street Journal published studies on how supplements out of big box retailers are 75% of them have like grass and wood and all sorts of junk in them. They're not made to the right standards. So I fully understand why as a physician or practitioner, you would reach for a pharma solution. Why? Because it's research-based. It's studied. It's tried and true. It's got the data behind it. And in Ayurveda, that's what we're trying to do. Just like traditional Chinese medicine has invested so much in proving acupuncture works for all of these different issues and diseases. In Ayurveda, we're trying so hard to prove that as well. It takes time, takes funding, takes passion. But we're getting there slowly, but surely, and we have a lot of physicians and practitioners doing the clinical trials in their offices now on herbs and spices. So I'm a big believer in sourcing from supplement companies that work with practitioners. There's a huge marketplace for that right now that's burgeoning and developing. Functional medicine doctors use certain websites. They go to certain conferences. And you can see supplement companies designed just for physicians, just for using medical grade potent herbs to support the patient. The problem is, yes, a lot of people overuse and abuse supplements. I get phone calls all the time from my different practitioners, one called me the other day and said, my patient is on 15 to 25 supplements. If you saw the box you brought in here, I don't know what to do. I had to research all of these and spend an hour. And I think these are the cause of the problem she has. And I said, you know, it's tough because nowadays, many of us, I'm kind of a supplement junkie. I love my supplement. Many of us are going to reach that way first for our solution. But what I like to do is really be that voice of reason that reminds people, look, we need to do our blood work. We need to do our annual visits. We need to understand what's going on in our bodies. And we can't overuse or abuse any system regardless of which one it is. And so I do hear a lot of doubt coming out of physicians because there are patients who do this, who say, oh, well, I think curriculum will cure my cancer. And we have to be really moderate and careful and say, look, adjunct solutions are great. Let's use my solution and that as an adjunct. And if my solution, if you can come off that solution sooner and your adjunct is holding you amazing. And if not, at least as a physician, I know that I did what's reasonable within my toolkit. You came to me for my opinion, that is my opinion. So that's where I'm trying to fit myself in is as a slice of a solution alongside others. I think that's more reasonable than coming out and saying, hey, everyone, tumor cures everything and life's going to be awesome. You know, personally, I try that route all the time. I'm like, oh, a cold is coming extra tumor. Oh, this hurts. But you know, if you hurt yourself bad enough, it might not be that tumor can hold you. Yeah, I love that. You know, I found in my early career that especially today when information is so readily available, right? People can take a deep dive into podcasts and books and YouTube and they can learn a lot about a lot. And by the time they come to the clinic, they already have some preconceived notion or belief about something. And if you take the dismissive approach, rather than open-minded approach, that therapeutic alliance is going to be formed. And they're not likely to listen to what you have to say. So I think just educating ourselves, which is kind of what we're hoping that people are doing here. And we're doing for people. And then being open-minded about that can at the very least inform them, hey, maybe this is not the right time, but doesn't mean that that place, that specific tool that you're bringing up doesn't have a place. I do want to follow up on the concept of picking out the good players versus the bad players, right? You touched on this for a second ago. As providers, if somebody approaches us with a new supplement, and actually, I want to answer it here, there's a misconception that supplements are not FDA regulated. And a previous guest came in and formed us that in fact, the FDA has a 101 supplements page rate. So they are regulated. There's a very poorly regulated. So I think that's something that we should clarify. That being said though, if somebody comes to us as physicians and said, hey, there's a supplement x, y, and z. What might be some questions that we could ask to help filter out whether or not they have the best of intentions, or they're doing it, again, quote unquote, the right way. It's tough. Honestly, it's tough. I am myself and very reticent to take other company supplements because I go to chiropractic conferences, functional medicine conferences. I get to meet with companies. And my directed questions are, where's this product made? Do the original founders own the company? Does the original family own the company? Did you sell? Who did you sell to? So many companies sell out to Nestle for hundreds of millions. And then the products made in China. And I'm not okay with that. I'm not putting that in my body. So it really comes down to who makes it, why, and how? In my case, I'll put my supplement hat back on. I manufacture in the US, a very particular. I've worked with the same manufacturer for seven years. I know perfectly that the source I use and the place that makes it has caused no harm to anyone. So to me, especially being married into an all physician family, I wanted no liability in the hands of the practitioner who's trusting me to create something that's good for people. But I find in this day and age, you don't always have that trustworthiness with an outside party or company. So I really get, I like to get to the team and the founders. I found a great company and I love the founders and I trust their sourcing and ability to make an excellent probiotic. So I recommend them. I recommend mine. But I really, you really have to go with your gut, do your research, make sure it's made in countries that you trust, and then go from there. Got to do the due diligence. And another thing is as practitioners, what I like is you guys know when something doesn't work. So I've really banked on that these years. A practitioner is not going to keep recommending something. If every patient comes back in and says, Doc, it didn't work for me. I didn't really like that. That doesn't make you look good. Patient is unhappy and you're not getting the result you want. So that's another tool you can use to measure. Awesome. I want to shift gears and talk about maybe another supplement or two. You mentioned Ashwaganda and that's getting a lot of attention as well. My understanding is the best evidence is really it can be a good enchilitic, sometimes a pain relief. And we know the pain anxiety kind of go ahead and hand. I think that there's some literature about it also being maybe a cognitive enhancer, but you know, correct me if I were wrong. But maybe you could give a little bit of background on what that is and really some of the therapeutic properties for that. Sure. Ashwaganda is my second favorite after turmeric. And I really love that it's an adaptogen. So the way I explain it is it's like a thermostat. If you're anxious and stressed, it calms you down a few notches. If you're kind of depressed and in the blues, it lifts you up. It adapts to you constantly throughout your day. It is for cognitive support as well. It's good for relaxing the body. So I put it into a T. I made a T called deep sleep T to give everyone better sleep. It can actually go both ways. It can be relaxing or it can give you that calm, clear focus. So I used to have a supplement called optimal performance. Optimal. Yeah, optimal formula. But my men would take it because it gave them focus while staying calm. And that was a really powerful support that they liked. I'm hoping to use it again next year in a menopause formula that I want to build. I made a menopause T. Now I want to make a menopause formula. And then I want to make one again that gives us that focus, calm energy that we need throughout the day. So I find it to be very supportive. And what's, so coming back to dozing, what would be an appropriate dose for some of those things we mentioned? I would say 400 to 500 milligrams per day total. You shouldn't overdose on Ashwagandha. It's not good. Versus turmeric, I take a triple dose of my product on any given day. If I feel like a cold's coming on, I'll take six turmerics. If I feel like I need extra support, I'll take six turmerics. So turmeric, you can go much higher because you can take eight grams per day safely. You can read, that's what we've proven so far with science that's safe. We know we can probably go higher, but that's proven. So yeah. Is there a need to kind of cycle with Ashwagandha, especially if it is an adaptogen? Is there a time where the effects will taper off and that you should be on it for some period of time and then come back onto it? So according to Ayurveda, we should really look at our own dosha and the seasons. So for example, going back to that complexity, not everyone wants to hear that. So in supplements, I talk about supplements as like just take them year round. Take two weeks off here or there. It's fine. Cycle on and off as needed. If you're feeling awesome, don't take turmeric for a couple of weeks. Then go back on when you're starting to feel, oh, run down and not as great or creaky and like stiff. But the truth is, we should look at our dosha. We should look at our season, take extra support in certain seasons and reduce that support in certain seasons as well. That's interesting. I was taking Ashwagandha probably like a year or two ago and I haven't recently. Now it's funny. I probably should because I'm starting to drink a lot more coffee now, at least one or two cups a day, at least for the antioxidant effects. And one of the things that I've been hearing is cycling through coffee can also be a good thing to get that caffeine back into your system and feel there's effects. But as you're off of that caffeine, something you can take is Ashwagandha along with Rhodiola. So I was doing that for a little bit and I mean, it's tough to say if you feel that palpable difference, but at least it was something maybe placebo kept my mind off coffee for a little bit. So that's something that I don't know if you know much about in terms of the Rhodiola and the Ashwagandha in that combination. But I just found that interesting. Yeah, you know Ashwagandha is one powerful adaptogen. We have Brummy, which is Bacopa. We have Shassandra, Rhodiola, Shetavari is considered the queen of herbs when it comes to female reproductive organs and things like that. So I find it so cool that we have this like medicine chest of plants and tools that we can reach into for support. Most of us, the majority of us don't have the intuitive sense to dive into those. There's going to be something we didn't grow up with. But it's so cool if you're open to kind of research and start to play with what resonates for your body. For some people, it'll resonate better in a tea with nut milk. For some people, you can take the supplement form. I like supplement because it's quicker and easier. But there is a benefit to honoring it in powder form and the ritual of tea and these kinds of things as well. So yeah, I think adaptogens are going to be something that we utilize more comfortably over the upcoming decades because we're going to need that level of support in the baseline as we go through our days. Like I can tell that during the holiday season, I need baseline support for the level of stress of the holiday season or certain seasons in my business. And so wouldn't it be cool if people are like, you know, I'm just going to take more ashwaganda. I'm in a busy quarter. And then when they're on vacation or chill, they don't need to take it. Yeah, kind of like flex dose, right? Whenever you need a little bit more, you can add in a little bit. I do want to touch on safety because you did talk about it, especially with turmeric and blood thinners. And I'm sure when you go visit doctors, they do ask about this, you know, who should not maybe take turmeric ashwaganda? So two full question, who should not be taking it? And then are there any other interactions with other supplements? And the reason I bring this stuff, actually, you know, I never really thought about it. I was listening to the Huberman lab podcast, right? He's got millions of, he's a huge audience. And he talks about how he started taking turmeric. And after about four days, he got off of it because he wasn't feeling well on it. And then they associated it to also an increase in DHT. So die hydro testosterone. And you know, you can go down the whole hair loss pathway and all that, which is what they were mentioning. So I am interested in kind of who should not take it? What are the interactions? And also, how long do you need to be on these supplements in order to get an effect? Sure. So according to the science that I've read, the one thing we should not do is take it with blood thinners. I have not read its interaction with any other supplements. So across the board, what I've read is it's quite safe. It's quite useful, especially that dose of 500 milligrams of curcumin with black pepper twice a day, warning and afternoon. I tell people to start with a meal because the standard American diet lacks spices. And so a lot of times when you introduce an herb that's spice based like turmeric, it's going to hit them hard. And they'll say, wow, I didn't feel right. When really it's their GI system that's not accustomed to something so potent, so strong, or a spice like that. So I tell people, look, start the first day one capsule with food. As you move through two days later, two capsules a day with food. Once you move a few days later, take it any time without food, you're fine. So I have not read that it interacts negatively with any other supplement. It's interesting because of how many different proteins can bind so easily with curcumin. So it seems, and I have a group that I'm going to do this like bio hackathon with where we're going to dive into that research together. But there's so many ways that it benefits us. Very few that we have found so far where it has a negative impact. You mentioned no supplement, a supplement interaction. I think the other important question that physicians would get a little bit nervous about is, again, medications. Sure. I assume that's also the case. No medication interactions as well. Not that we have seen. Because I mean, imagine who's going to pay for that study. Yeah, yeah, that would be tough one. It isn't important because to sit there and do a drug versus curcumin study. So the one we have found so far is blood thinners. But yes, I do agree that it's an issue, especially nowadays with people taking so many drugs. So that begs the question because one of the things that's always tested on our boards is like St. John's word. And it's, what is it? SSRI's, Tarsh, is that the one? And so do you know any background into that? Like how was that figured out? Was that tested directly or? I think sometimes anecdotally you guys are observational. You see that you see what's happening and you're like, wait a minute, what are you taking? Okay, come off it. Oh, now we're fixed, right? And so I'm almost basing a lot of what I do off of anecdotally because I get to sit across from physicians all day. I'm like a doctor. G, what did you see? What happened? How did the patient react? What was the issue? I get to be a researcher. My company's small enough. I get to collect that data myself and I have that interest. And then now as we're moving into clinical research and using surveys and tracking patients over 30 and 60 days, we get to collect that data on a much bigger level. And it's interesting because like St. John's war and stuff, from what I remember, like there's a liver toxicity component. There's a hepatotoxicity, a renal disease component to it on its own. And then I think, you know, they realize in such high doses, this is why it can cause. So if you take that dose down and then combine it with like other meds that kind of work on that same sip inhibitor or whatever the boy, whatever it is in the liver, you might, you might have that effect. Yeah, I will also plug in. I think when I was in residency, I can't, I don't seem to have access to it anymore, but there was a specific supplement or like herbal medication and drug interaction checker. So, you know, I'd encourage people if you're a part of an institution, maybe through your health sciences library, you might have some service available like that. I'm not sure if curcumin is going to be, but talking about how prevalent it is, I guess is it's going to be in there. Ashwagandha, that's the other one. So same question that has any concern for Ashwagandha? You know, I haven't done a deep dive into Ashwagandha yet. I always tell people if I have time for another PhD, I would do it on Ashwagandha because I think it has that type of multi-dimensional effect and support on the body. All I do know is people are using Ashwagandha a lot for mental health issues. They're seeing it to be, like I saw an article that says, Ashwagandha as effective as 14 drugs used for anxiety, depression and mental health issues. And I saw that article and I thought, okay, well, that's cool. You know, we can see, we can test if it helps people with anxiety, depression and these kinds of things, but that's its own separate journey. Absolutely. Now, you've touched on your current practice, essentially, working with physicians, you know, your PhD had, again, continuing to push the boundaries of research and what you're excited about. Maybe expand a little bit more about your company, how your day-to-day looks like, just for the listener. And, you know, also, what's next for you? It could really be in the business aspect. It could be research if you want to balance on that, again, a little bit more. Flores, yours. Sure. So, you know, I wear two hats. As Dr. Shivani, I get to be an IRVD practitioner here to spread the message of IRVD across the world. So, I just want people with no IRVD that exists. It is a system of medicine. If you have a lot of questions, Deepak Chopra's website is the best and has the best content. I am maybe a hundredth in line in terms of great content, but it's on my website and YouTube channel, too. And I'm trying to get out there and just share that IRVD has tools for us. And I created like a six-week program where if people are curious and want to kind of deep dive into a mini IRVD school, we can dive into what is circadian rhythm, what is your dosha, how do you optimize sleep and really hack sleep and get it optimal, digestive fire, how to fix that digestive fire. So, you have a strong immune system. So, you have a stronger metabolism. What is the psychvic diet? So, we have nutrient density and nutrition over our long-term health. So, I really love diving into those topics when I'm one with people or in groups and writing books on that and teaching that. Like, that's my life purpose that I'm just going to keep doing until the day I'm dying. So, like, that's one side. And then on the other side, you know, curcumin is the herb I picked in this lifetime to study in Deb. And I built fusionary formulas to be that tool in the toolkit for doctors. And so, I really love meeting physicians. I find physicians to be so bright and so curious and so intelligent and so goal-oriented to help the patient, front of them, using the toolkit they have. And like I said, I'd just like to be one more tool in the entire spectrum of what physicians are going to use. And so, my curiosity is I started with orthopedics and chiropractic. This year, I started talking to functional medicine, primary care, direct primary care doctors, acupuncture physicians. And I'm just curious over my decades how many areas of medicine will comfortably and easily start recommending tumor to their patients. Like, that could be a really interesting journey. And then, of course, to prove it clinically with research is always better because my audience, the doctors, love to see that proof, you know. And then also, I really want to see how many other ways can we prove curcumin can support us. We live in this world full of stresses, like I mentioned, all sorts of environmental factors that are taking their tools. As you can see, the population's getting sicker, not healthier. So, how can we support people on their health journey to have more preventive tools in your hand to understand that inflammation is a root cause type of issue, that every system of medicine is seeing ituses, arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, gastritis, you name it. And if we offered people natural solutions earlier, would that change the trajectory of how many specialists and how many different things they have to try to get the help they need? So, I'm really excited. I'm excited for the future. I think functional medicine is teaching a lot of Ayurveda right now. They're reaching into the toolkit. I would like more of the world to give credit to Ayurveda because it's a profound system that really came up with these concepts for us. And I hope that everyone just takes an interest in it because we could have an entirely different world. If we're all healthier, if we're all thriving, if we had vibrant health, instead of constantly dealing with our sicknesses, I think we'd have a different planet overall. We'd have a much happier planet. Yeah, for sure. That was very well said. I think a lot of the points you brought up to are it's going to be interesting to kind of see your quest and our quest as a whole to find those answers out. I know our audience will probably want to take that quiz to understand their dosha. Where can they go to take that? Where can they go to see your supplement? Sorry, brain part there. So what's your website? Sure. So the dosha quiz is on shavani.gov.com, SHIVANI, G-U-P-T-A. My website is fusionaryformulets.com, F-U-S-I-L-N-A-R-Y, formulas. And then I'm on both for Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. Perfect. And we will definitely put those in the show notes for easy access. Shavani, I want to thank you so much for coming on here. Honestly, when you when you reached out and I saw PhD in turmeric, I definitely had to take a double tape for that. But I learned a lot and ultimately I did as well. And this was an awesome conversation. So before we let you go, we like to ask you our last question, which I know can be a separate podcast in its own as we were talking about it offline. But how do we put the health back in health care? Oh, good question. I think as practitioners, it's your opportunity, your honor and your duty, to keep on that quest of looking for the best tools for your patient. Natural, organic, healthy, to advise on lifestyle, they are perked up and listening to you. And I find it so beautiful when practitioners are ready to educate the patient on all the different ways we can build our health from the ground up. And we're seeing that seismic shift. And I love that medicine is shifting and supporting people in a whole new way. Perfect. Thanks, Yvonne. Thank you. Thank you for listening to another episode of Medicine Redefined. As always, we are appreciated with your support. It's you that make this happen, so keep sending us your comments and feedback via email or social media. You can reach us at medredefined.gmail.com or just medredefined on all the socials. I want to also thank our team for the production of this podcast. I'm Monbashiri, Ethan Jiu, and Herita Yipuri. Now for the important disclaimer, please remember that everything in this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute the practice of medicine, no sure to be construed as medical advice, no physician-patient relationships formed, and anything discussed in this podcast does not represent the views of our employers. We recommend that you seek the guidance of your personal physician regarding any specific health-related issues. But if you enjoyed the show, please be sure to subscribe, review, and share with anyone who you think will gain value from this as well. Until next time, thank you for listening and Happy New Year!