85. Chemicals That Cause Hormone Disruption & Creating a Low-Tox Environment | Yvonne Burkart, PhD

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined. A podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in health care. Our guest today is Yvonne Burkhardt. Yvonne obtained her degree in biology from UC Irvine and went on to complete her doctorate in environmental toxicology. She previously held the roles of research scientists at ScienceHail Research Labs and senior toxicologist at Global Regulatory Services. She currently serves as the head toxicologist at the swells for. As you'll learn, she has a very personal story behind her passion, and she's now on a mission to help families avoid toxicants to protect their well-being. Now this one is spearheaded by my partner, Dr. Darsha. So like you, I have the privilege of being the listener seat, and I am excited. Because in this episode we learn about Yvonne's background origin story, we discuss some of the mainstream hormone disruptors and their potential effects, even as early as the embryological stage and maybe even transgenerational effects. And then touch on the specific hormones that are influenced, because as far as we know, not all are, and also some common clinical manifestations of their disruptions. For most folks, while listening to these conversations, the obvious question that comes to mind is, how can cosmetics, you know, things like shampoos, perfumes, beauty products, how do these chemicals that give them the edge also have a detrimental response? Lucky for us, Yvonne touches on that quite a bit. She also touches on the assessment strategies and methods for many of these products. And before they wrap up, they do a great job sharing tips, tricks, strategies on how to be cognizant of our environmental exposures. So please do stick around for that. I'll finish by saying that although some of this conversation has been around forever, like many trends, this concept of microdosing of environmental and chemicals is somewhat cyclical and on the rise again. So it's good to touch on it at the very least be a refresher if not novel information. When you might hear turns or learn of chemicals that seem very scary, remember our intention like any other discussion we've had is not to instill fear, rather raise awareness, educate ourselves, and hopefully pass that along, and most importantly rethink or re-evaluate how we practice health. So please keep that in mind as you listen along. With that being said, please enjoy this discussion with Yvonne Burkart. Welcome back, Rita Finers. We have a very special guest with us today, Dr. Yvonne Burkart. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. So I was really excited to have you on this show because toxicology, which we're going to delve into all things, has really become something that's more and more people are becoming aware of it. And I think, you know, part of that is because of you on social media and in your videos. But even things like TikTok and just other people from different fields are putting out videos about how our pollutants and environment can really affect us. But there doesn't seem to be, it doesn't seem to be as penetrable in the doctor's office, right? Like, me as a physician, we're not really having these conversations. And I think that's where your expertise really comes in. So first of all, I'm just very interested in understanding your background and how you decided to pursue a PhD in toxicology. This is a really great question. And it basically happened by accident. So I was an undergrad majoring in biology. I actually had the intention to go into medicine. But didn't really feel like that was my true passion. And in the process of looking for an undergrad research project, I stumbled upon a toxicology lab and just became obsessed with what was happening in here. And I had no idea how it would come full circle for me and really penetrate and affect my entire life in the best possible way. Yeah, so was this something during undergrad that you kind of figured out? And then you had the toxicology lab and you're like, that's it. I want to go on to do the further training. Exactly. So I started out as an undergrad actually washing dishes in the lab and just observing. And then eventually got up the courage to ask the professor if I could join as an undergrad research student. And then just kept going, I eventually joined the graduate program and never left. Wow. Was there a personal story attached to why you chose toxicology? Because I mean, I wouldn't have had most of the, I do a lot of pre-medicoaching. And I don't find many people, you know, interested in toxicology. So was there something specific that really got you hooked on to it? You know, to be honest, I was always interested in women's health. And for some reason, there was just a poll. Something interested me in toxicology and in seeing that the professor was a woman. She was also studying ovarian toxicity in particular. And just knowing that ovarian cancer can be extremely deadly because it isn't often detected until much later in the disease progression. So that really interested me especially. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, in my world of the physician land, the real way we truly see toxicology, I guess, is through like emergency medicine. And even then, I think feel like that's more like a subspecialty fellowship that people go into. I mean, there's slowly more and more talk of toxicology, especially with women's health and hormone disruption and things. But I do want to ask you, why does low talks even matter? Why are we even talking about this? The environment has a huge impact on our health. And I didn't actually believe it myself. So even though I had been studying toxicology now for over 21 years, I didn't think it affected me. I didn't think it affected until I actually had issues with my own fertility and my own hormone and balances that several doctors, I went to endocrinologist, I went to specialists and everyone told me I was normal, everyone said I was fine. And I knew that I wasn't fine. So I looked for alternatives and that's when I found natural pathic, functional medicine and the whole lifestyle component came into play. And that was actually a really difficult thing for me to grasp because all of my training in toxicology just didn't match up with what they were telling me in the clinic. So it wasn't until I started down my own path of trying to uncover what were the reasons that I was having infertility, essentially. And amenorrhea, I was having so many issues that could not get, be explained. Even though they told me I was normal, clearly that's not normal. So once I started addressing lifestyle in my own home, that's when I started to see improvement in my health and thank God I have been able to have my own kids. Yeah, wow. And I definitely want to touch on that later in the episode in terms of signs and symptoms. But you just mentioned hormone disruption in a way, right? And I think, as we get a hot topic for a lot of people and I know even like Huberman Lab, I just heard him have an episode with Dr. College of Lab who's a family medicine, hormone specialist, all about hormone testosterone, estrogen, everything, but they don't really talk about the disruption standpoint, right? I think a lot of people are more focused on the biochemistry because it's already so complicated. But let's talk about hormone disruption for men and women when it comes to toxicology. What are those big hormone disruptors? Are there certain chemicals? Is it just like certain environmental pollutants? Yeah, that's a great question. Definitely. The biggest ones that have come into the forefront are PFAS chemicals, which are the fluorinated teflon-like chemicals. They are extremely persistent in the environment and pretty much almost all of these endocrine disrupting chemicals are persistent and that's really the problem is once they're created they don't really go away. They affect not only the mother, but also they can have transgenerational effects. So if the mother is exposed, while pregnant, the baby eventually if it's a female can also have the grandchildren being affected because the old sites are present in the ovaries during development as the mother is being exposed. So it becomes this massive issue that people don't start to notice until later on in life in some cases. There are cases when the hormone disruption becomes pretty apparent in, I would say, the early stages of life. There's been changes that have been seen in babies, in young children, of course, and even in adults, men and women alike. So it used to be that men thought they were not as susceptible to hormone disruption because spermatogenesis takes place. You can replenish your sperm, whereas with women you can't replenish your oocytes. But now more and more, we're seeing there's actually pretty alarming rates of sperm decline on a population level. So probably over the last 30 years or so, it's nearly a 40 percent decline, which is pretty shocking. Yeah, it's absolutely wild. I think recently I was just reading about what you were talking about, how these effects can be generational, right? So how does it talk so I kind of want to start to be getting, right? So for the listener, when they have, let's say, a Teflon product in front of them on their pan or they have a plastic water bottle, how exactly do they do that? Do these toxins enter our body? And then what happens once they enter our body, do they accumulate somewhere? Yeah, that's a really, really good question. So there are four main routes of toxic exposure through the air, what we ingest through our skin and the eyes being the minor one, but that doesn't mean that it's not important as well, especially for women with makeup, which I'm sure we want to touch on that as well. But when it comes to, for example, the Teflon pans, the issues with those chemicals is they can actually become volatileized. So you're not just getting it through migration into your food, which is through ingestion, but you're also getting it potentially through inhalation, depending on how you use the pan. If you heat it high enough, there are so many different variables in there, but the more routes that you're exposed through, the more of an opportunity these chemicals can negatively impact your health. And in the case of PFAS, they bio accumulate in the body because the rate of detoxification is so low and the continuous exposure causes us to have accumulation over time. And I think that's something that we need to talk about as well is it's not one or two or maybe even 10 exposures. It's about long-term chronic exposures over months, years, and even lifetimes. Do we have like a relative span of understanding how long it takes? Like is there a certain age group that gets affected? I know it's probably a vague question, because if we're talking about generational from baby and depending on where you live and the pollutants LA versus like Savannah, Georgia, maybe or something, I'm sure it differs, but is there a relative span that we know about bio accumulation where it takes 20, 30, 40 years or more for the effects to occur? It really depends on the type of compound that you're talking about, but in general, when it comes to hormone disruption, the effects can be quite rapid. So it doesn't necessarily take, there isn't like a latency period is what I'm saying. So for example, once you remove these sources, for example, in the case of thalates, which are present in plastic that we kind of touched on, but also in fragrances and other different food contact materials, you can actually reduce the amount in the bloodstream pretty rapidly. Because that one does get detoxified pretty quickly. In the case of PFAS, the exposure has already begun as soon as conception takes place. Most people have PFAS in the body. What is PFAS stand for and where do we find that most of the time? Per and polyfluorial, calculated substances, so there's pretty much everywhere now. Just because of their stability, the chemical is so stable that there aren't ways that we can easily degrade it, which is the problem, right? Because once you make it, it's there. It's not going anywhere. Now they're coming out with technology to help degrade these things, but they are so stable. They can survive UV, they can survive heat, I mean, they are extremely tolerant. And so that's really the issue is that we're exposed right at the point of conception. That's really truly when your exposure begins. And I'm guessing the reason PFAS are so prevalent is because of those reasons, right? It's resistant. So, you know, for manufacturers, it's so easy to use in order to create a product that stays on the shelf for longer. Is that correct? Yeah, so it's really interesting because PFAS can be used in so many different ways. So Teflon is for nonstick, right, on cookware. It can be used to waterproof. So it can be used to stain guard. So it's on waterproof clothing, such as rain gear. It's also used in firefighting foams. There's a higher incidence of cancer in firefighters who are exposed to these materials and so on and so forth. I mean, they come in so many different ways, but once they're in the environment, they're in the water, they're in the soil, they're in the air, they're in fish, they have. So there's this thing called biomagnification. So like the higher up in the food chain, you are the more likely you are to have toxic accumulation and polar bears, even though they are so far away from most human populations, they have been shown to have PFAS in their fat. So that's how far these things can travel because they're so stable that they can travel huge long distances up the food chain. They're called forever chemicals for a reason because they're around forever. Yeah, that's absolutely insane to think about, right? We're talking about generationally through the human species, but then also just up the food chain. I've seen sea spheracy and just talking about microplastics and I kind of think of it also like you know, you can take fish oil or you can take kind of algae oil and the way the fish make their omega-3s is because they're eating the algae, right? And so that bio-cumulation from their point, you're kind of getting the benefit of both. So that's the way I kind of think about that. I do want to kind of circle back to now the hormone disruption standpoint because I think a lot of our listeners are going to be like, wait, so how is this exactly affecting the hormones, right? I think if we can get that education, more people are going to become aware. So you talk about the four ways I'm ingesting toxins, they can bio-cumulate. How is it exactly affecting hormones and which hormones are being affected? It's mainly through the estrogen receptor, so it can either bind the estrogen receptor and activate it or it can antagonize estrogen and just basically disrupt the estrogen balance in the body and how your cells respond to estrogen. So that would be concerning for mainly women or also men? Also men. People here also men as well, okay. Right. So men also have estrogen receptors, right? So it's not just women have more and women respond to estrogen more for that reason, but men also have estrogen receptors and need estrogen to have proper functioning reproductive organs and as well as behavior. So it's interesting because PFAS can also disrupt the thyroid and everyone has a thyroid, right? Regardless of male or female, everyone depends on thyroid function. And it's been shown that PFAS definitely disrupts thyroid function in humans. Wow. Now, is it, are we seeing more hypothyroidism because of that? Yes. Yes. Because it's hypothyroidism. I'm sure you can tell me about this. It's more prevalent than hyperthyroidism. Yeah. Right. Right. It is. Yeah. Absolutely. And so for the, for the listers out there, hypothyroidism is kind of, you would think about slowing your metabolism, right? So the thyroid hormone is what keeps our basal metabolic rate up and, you know, if you have Hashimoto's disease, which is a hypothyroidism, autoimmune disease, that would slow your metabolism kind of make you feel cold, gain weight, feel more fatigue. So okay, I didn't realize it also affects the thyroid. And then as far as the estrogen receptor goes, did you say it's blocking the estrogen receptor? It can actually bind to the estrogen receptor and it just affects how your body responds to estrogen. It can be either antagonism or it can actually amplify the signal. So that's typically how hormone disruptors work. But in the case of PFAS, there's actually also evidence that it can disrupt insulin. So it's basically hitting on almost every hormone system in the body. And as you mentioned, with the thyroid, slowing down your metabolism and then also through the insulin pathway. Wow. Okay. So I'm going to wait till the kind of towards the end of this episode to kind of talk about ways that we can get this out of our body and kind of talk about tests and things that we can do. But I know a lot of the women, such as my wife, she wants to learn about cosmetics and understand cosmetics and just kind of body care fragrance products that we use. I mean, that's been a really big topping in terms of brands trying to go clean. What's the main issue that's going on with the cosmetic industry in terms of keeping it clean and all these harmful chemicals? So the cosmetics industry as a whole is actually what they call self-regulated. So there are toxicologists, there are scientists that look at cosmetic ingredients, specifically the more synthetic ones before they go on store shelves. However, they are related, they are within the cosmetic industry. So there is, in my opinion, a conflict of interest. So is the information that we're receiving giving us the full picture. And from what I gather, when I look at ingredients in cosmetics, they haven't been fully tested in the way that they should be, in my opinion. So there's a lot of what we call extrapolation. So from one chemical to another, very few of these chemicals have been fully vetted and tested from a toxicological perspective and what we need to do. Because now we're seeing the health effects 10, 20, 30 years after these ingredients have been introduced. Now, that's basically it, is that the testing is inadequate. Right, and I'm sure maybe we look at the fashion industry and kind of how it evolves and you're seeing all these influencers' leveries come now with their own product lines and that's kind of grabbing more women and men into buying their products, right? So what goes into testing, or at least what would make it better in your standpoint in terms of third-party testing? So the way that chemicals are tested, they usually test them on their own individually. And you know that a product is made up of hundreds, if not thousands of chemicals. You can't test one and say it's safe on its own just like this. It doesn't make any sense. It does not adequately capture the human exposure scenario. It just doesn't make sense. They're tested individually. They're not tested for lifetime, low-dose exposures in combinations, the way that women tend to layer products on top of each other. That's really how the dosages get higher because of the layering. So if you're looking at just one product, sure, it may seem okay, but that ingredient can be found in 10 products, for example, that somebody's using. So has it been adequately assessed? More often than not, it hasn't. Gotcha. So okay, let's say we're going to Sephora, Ulta, whatever it is. We're picking out a product. What do you recommend people do it? What is your go-to to see whether you're going to buy that product or not? Definitely. You can narrow down your search if you look for the clean section of the store. So Sephora and Ulta both have clean options. But even within that area of the store, there is greenwashing because companies basically can use various marketing terms that are unsubstantiated because they're just not regulated by the government. So one of them is natural. Natural is not defined. So you can say that your product is natural even though it's full of synthetics. So that's already a problem. What I recommend people doing is looking for organic ingredients, USDA certified organic ingredients. Very few products will actually have the organic seal on the front of it. It's very challenging to get that. But if you turn it over and you look at the ingredients, if you can recognize the ingredient names, if they don't seem entirely foreign to you, that is often a good starting point. But there's so much that we can go into when it comes to reading ingredient labels, but that's generally what I recommend doing is just ignore all of the marketing, ignore the hype. Look at the ingredients list. Is it simple or is it really long? Is it really complicated? Does it seem like a lot of really long chemical names? So that's where I would recommend people start. I mean, if you don't mind, can we just even dive in terms of ingredient reading? Of course. Let's do it. Yeah. So within the first couple of ingredients, if there are highly synthetic long chemical names, that is something to be wary of because typically the ingredients in the front of the list in the beginning are the most prevalent, most abundant in that product. So you're basically buying mainly the first, I would say, five to seven ingredients or so. So if they're all sounding like synthetic silicones or petroleum derivatives, like glycalls, then that is not necessarily an ideal product that I would recommend. Not to say that you can't use it ever, but it's something to be aware of if it's something that you plan on using frequently, which most women do. Most women wear makeup, you know, almost every day. Very few people can go, I don't know, I personally don't go without it too often. It's something that I know very well, but another red flag to look out for is fragrance. Fragrance is an umbrella term. It can encompass up to any combination of nearly 4,000 chemicals. That can also include endocrine disruptors and also carcinogens, allergens. There's so many sort of, I would say red and yellow flags within the fragrance umbrella term. Right. It seems so innocuous when you see natural and fragrance and it makes you cheer up and feel good and say, I'm going to smell good or this is especially good for me if it's not bitter and it doesn't really have that negative connotation to it. It's funny, but that's marketing, right? I think in previous episodes on this podcast, we've talked about the bliss point and kind of how foods will market towards kids and the eyes and the flavor and the right amount of fat to sugar to carbs just so it can be addicting. In the same way, it's almost like the wording that these marketers choose to hook people. It's kind of the same thing. Typically, people say when it comes to deodorants and they're more natural, you're going to have to apply it more often. Would you say it's similar to cosmetics where if somebody were to buy something super clean, it's not going to be, quote, unquote, better quality that you might have to use it more often? I would say that it used to be that way, but things have changed and the industry has shifted and there are many, many products that I find to be high performing. I would say you can almost find an alternative for any product out there, almost. So far that I've seen a cleaner, low-talks, more organic version, a plant based, for example, there are so many options out there now because there are tons of indie brands coming out and the performance isn't an issue anymore. It used to be, but I don't believe it is anymore. Touch it. Are there any brands that you recommend? Yes. One brand that I quite enjoy using is 100% pure. What is one brand? They use fruit and vegetable pigments in their products. I find them to be, they perform well for me. They're not heavily scented or fragrance, which is something that I personally prefer, but there's also another brand called Bitglow, Bitglow, F-I-T-G-L-O-W. That's also one of the brands that a lot of people like and have switched to. Gotcha. Cool. Awesome. Okay. Welcome back to the holiday season. When people are going to listen to this, Christmas probably is going to be over, but it's still going to be in the time frame when people are celebrating. You had an Instagram video talking about candles, and I know you probably got a lot of questions on this. You made multiple videos on it. As I was watching it, there was a candle burning in my room, and I was like, oh, man, because I absolutely love fragrance and stuff, but tell me what the deal is with candles and like essential oils and any type of fragrance that we tend to use during this time of year. So actually, these can be indoor air polluters. There are sources of indoor air pollutants, and indoor air is more polluted than outdoor air, in most cases, because a lot of people spend time indoors. We don't open our windows frequently enough. There isn't necessarily the UV that is coming from the sun that can help to keep bacterial and viral counts low. We have a lot of humidity issues as well, so there can be breeding grounds for mold, so many other things. The personal care products, cleaning products that we use, the candle we use, the fragrances, those all contribute to indoor air pollution, because they release volatile organic compounds or VOCs. VOCs are not, we don't want high levels of VOCs. We also don't want high levels of particulate matter in the air, because all of those things are being inhaled, and the route of inhalation exposure in toxicology and health is the most sensitive second only to IV injection, so be really careful with what you are putting in your air. Wow, I didn't realize that. So I think you then also came out of the video about alternatives, and is it that people can make their own candles or can you buy more natural candles? Oh, you can definitely buy better candles, such as beeswax. So upon my research, I really, I'm a science geek, and I needed to know what research has been done, what measurements have been taken from various types of waxes, from scents, from various wick materials I just need to know. So I spent so much time looking into this, and it came out that beeswax is the lowest polluting type of candle with a wood wick and essential oils. That was, those were my findings. A lot of people like to burn candles for ambiance, right? So I recommend then if you really need to burn a candle, beeswax with a wooden wick, because believe it or not, even the wick material can affect the emissions, because some wicks can contain lead, that's more older, those have been banned, but you can still find them out there, that can liberate lead into the air that you're inhaling. Cotton can also be treated with pesticides, so you don't necessarily want to liberate these chemicals into your air, if you're trying to create a pleasant environment for yourself. Wow, cool, beeswax, got it. I didn't even ask you, I love that we're absolutely nerding out here on the same way, just kind of optimizing, you know, in any way that you can, because why not, if you can delve into the research and understand it? Did you do your thesis on, what was your PhD, was it focused on something specific within toxicology? Yeah, I actually looked at the protective mechanism of glutathione on ovarian toxicity. So how does glutathione, the master antioxidant in our bodies, how does it affect reproduction, mainly in women, but I also kind of did a little bit in the male model as well. Cool. What did you find? It protects us. Right. Right around the time of ovulation, you actually get a surge of glutathione production in the ovary, because it helps to, how would I say, to kind of temper the oxidative event of ovulation. So it helps to kind of, you know, take away some of the damage that you get to the tissue, because it has to rupture. So there is an oxidation situation going on. Very cool. Now, is it, is it, is it glutathione, something we can take as a supplement as well? Or is it? It is. I can't remember. So glutathione, liposomal glutathione is the ideal way to do it for absorption purposes, but I prefer to get glutathione through food. So glutathione precursors, anything that has sulfur in it, because sulfur is what you need to make the cysteine, which is the limiting amino acid in glutathione. So the more cysteine you can get, the more sulfur you can get, the more you're giving your body to make glutathione. But remember that you can only make a certain amount based on your genetic background. So you can't just like, I mean, you can eat a lot of sulfur that's not going to harm you. But there's only so much that your body can make in a 24 hour window. Gotcha. Yeah. And for people that are like, I have no idea what's going on. I recommend just Google imaging, kind of like the glutathione, like pathway, and I think you'll see the sulfur. And it's kind of in my mind with a little arrow and using a sulfur to kind of convert it over and whatnot. So I recommend people Google imaging that. Cool. We went over cosmetics and kind of like the body care. We went over oils or actually, let's go into essential oils because I know that's something that a lot of people have done. And even when I shadowed like a functional medicine doctor, one of his patients would come and say, you know, I don't give my kids any perfume, cologne to use. They get to dab on essential oils on their skin. What is your thought on that? If they are using it neat, that is something I would definitely advise against because essential oils are extremely concentrated and potent. So the higher the, the more you concentrate a substance from what it was in the plant. So from the whole plant, for example, a rosemary oil, essential oils can be hundreds of times more concentrated than what you would find in the rosemary plant. So you can have chemical burns, you can have so many issues with applying neat essential oils. So if they're properly diluted and you know what you're doing, I highly recommend taking some, reading some books on it to understand how to use essential oils safely because they are very potent. But using them topically on the skin as such, if they're properly diluted, isn't really necessarily a problem. But just so you know, there's actually been studies that show that lavender and tea tree oil can have estrogenic activity. So you might want to maybe consider different oils for your kids. Wow, I didn't know that because I know a lot of people use lavender, especially for like the calming effects. And I think some of the research actually shows that it works better in males than females as far as like the calming effect for lavender. And I work with a pediatrician who was telling his patients that, but good to know. So kind of like diluting it and not using it so concentrated will at least mitigate some of those negative effects when it comes to essential oils. Right. Perfect. Cool. Is there anything else that you're pretty worried about that we as a species really have been considered too well? Is it water? Is there more just air pollution? I mean, there's two really big things. But what's kind of on your mind that you want the listeners to kind of take away and take action on? I would say if there are any changes that you can make right now, it would be very simple. Open your windows and filter your water. Those are very simple, very basic, fundamental things that I believe all people can easily do. And there are different water filters out there, some are better than others. Dr. G actually had an episode on Britta, which was very interesting. That's not the kind that I would recommend. But definitely just opening your windows more frequently. Because that's just going to bring in fresh air. It's going to help regulate the humidity in your room. Because a lot of people have respiratory issues around, especially around this time of year, right? It's just the cold and flu season. And you know, before that, it was COVID. But opening your windows can do so much for your health. It's unbelievable. And it's free. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think, you know, when I moved, when I became a resident, first year intern and moved into this apartment, you know, the first two things I did was really make sure the windows could open and make sure I was getting like a good draft, getting an air purifier. And then we also got a burky, too, just kind of filter that out. It's definitely been making a difference in terms of just water quality, taste, and then you can just really tell the difference after a while. Like, I just can never go back to tap anymore. So yeah, I definitely agree with both of those. Where can we really make the biggest change as a society? So, you know, just give context, too. We brought up Sephora and Ulta. And I think actually today, I just got like a text about Sephora is actually in a lawsuit about clean products. And so, do you want to explain that and kind of what's going on? Yeah, sure. So, there's a lawsuit against Sephora because of greenwashing and consumer deception with the clean beauty section of their store, because some products can still have synthetics in them. So it gave consumers a false sense of security. Because they're thinking I'm getting a cleaner product and it is cleaner, but is it truly clean? Well, it really depends who you ask. So it's really up to the consumer, unfortunately, to properly vet these products and ingredients before we buy them, because we can't believe the marketing anymore. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It was funny. I think it was a TikTok video and the creator, the content creator was saying, you know, she wasn't expecting it to be a lawsuit in that sense where it's not clean enough. She thought it would almost kind of be the opposite where they're saying, I mean, I couldn't get the wording straight, but it's funny that, hey, there's still a proponent out there saying, we need to get cleaner. And I guess this kind of goes back to what you're talking about in terms of the research and testing as well. But at least there's awareness coming out, right? Which is kind of how I started this episode. Are there any websites or apps that you recommend that people follow in terms of kind of figuring out what's good, what's not, and also just learning about like hormone disruption and kind of what pollutants can do? So for hormone disruption, I recommend going to the NIEHS website, National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences. If you just Google that NIEHS, there are so many articles about endocrine disruption, you can read specifically about PFAS, chemicals, satellites, they have general, just more broad overview articles, but you can get pretty detailed on that website as well. So that's one that I recommend reading. I also recommend if you are just brand new and you are looking to clean up your lifestyle in general, you can follow the EWG or the Environmental Working Group. So they publish every year, the clean 15 and the dirty dozen lists of crops that are either low pesticides or high pesticides. And so you can use that to kind of guide your grocery shopping. So you don't necessarily have to buy everything organic. You can prioritize those that are more heavily sprayed just to try to help with budget if anyone has budget constraints, but just to also make it easy on yourself so you don't always feel like I can only eat organic because that's not necessarily true either. Right, I was just about to ask you that, you know, there's a lot more research coming out on organic versus in organic. And I think more people are starting to realize now that organic actually does use pesticides. They're just, I guess, like cleared by, you know, our government and stuff in terms of more of a safety profile. But what is your stance in terms of like, are you okay? Would you still buy the clean 15, even if they were not organic? Oh, yeah, absolutely. We regular bananas, regular avocados, especially the fruits where you're not eating the skin, and it's not necessarily a problem. Apples are one that I do eat organic and strawberries just because those consistently come up on the dirty dozen lists. And you also eat the whole fruit. So it's that's where I kind of gauge things is, am I going to eat the whole fruit? Is it something that we like to eat all the time or is it just something every now and again? I try to stay with seasons, but not always, you know, we bananas year round. Yeah. And so, you know, you do what you can and I wouldn't worry too, too hard on it. Just try your best. I just say try your best, be intentional and just use a little bit of consideration when you're buying. Right. Absolutely. So, okay. I want to come back into what we can do, right? So I feel like there's going to be two camps out there, people who are like whatever toxicology doesn't really affect me. I can't really feel the difference. I can't see it, whatever, not going to pay attention to it. Then you might have like the worried well where they are, you know, maybe healthy, maybe not, but they're super anxious, every little thing in their house has to kind of be clean. But it seems like, you know, after this discussion, it's impossible at this point to run away from everything, right? And so, hopefully we have this general population that's here saying, okay, I can kind of figure some things out. Does water and like air purifiers, are there any other steps that, you know, people can take without going overboard in regards to just products, but also if they're going to go talk to their doctor, like how should they go about seeing whether they may have some toxicology or hormone disruption? So, there's actually one test out there made by the million marker that can test for a couple of different substances like BPA, I believe it can test for athletes as well. I personally had a glyphosate test done. And I did, I did have elevated glyphosate in my body. Most people have glyphosate also exposure. Even if you eat organic, even if you eat super clean, you can still have glyphosate exposure through your environment. So if they're spraying it around your home, if your kids are in schools, you know, so it's one of those things where you just try your best and just don't worry too much because the stress is also highly detrimental, of course. Yeah, right. What do I think the common signs and symptoms that you would see mainly in somebody who's either getting hormone disruption or just toxicology in general is affecting them? Ooh, so when it comes to hormone disruption, you can definitely get things like it can be pretty subtle. You can have just migraines, you can have headaches. You can have brain fog, lethargy, you can have acne, hair loss, a little bit of weight gain or just having a difficult time losing weight. That's also a problem. Digestive issues are really common, respiratory issues, eczema. So all of those types of seems like there's some inflammation component to it, right? So those can often show up. I had probably all of those, yeah, I had all of those at one point in my life. What prompted you to kind of get tested? Was there a tipping point or was it just because you're involved in this that you just said, hey, I'm going to go kind of get tested and see what's going on? Oh, I was actually highly resistant to getting tested for a long time because I just didn't believe that my environment was so toxic. I just didn't believe it. I said, no, no, no, I don't know what you're talking about. The things that are really toxic are industrial chemicals and, you know, solvents and things like that. I'm not exposed to any of that, but it was really the point where I realized my life is being impacted. I'm not able to function on the job. I feel like a fraction of who I really am. I felt trapped in my body. My brain wasn't functioning. I just was having a hard time. I was having a hard time remembering words. I mean, mine was pretty, I would say pretty severe. And so then that prompted me to look into it because I just, I knew I wasn't normal. And I was like, something's got to give. Nothing's working. I need to have kids. If I'm going to do it, it's now or never. So it was kind of a Hail Mary, like just whatever sticks, whatever works, I'll try anything. I was desperate. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I'm starting to see it slowly. More and more people talk about this. But I feel like in order to get these labs and things, people may have to go into the naturopathic doctor. They might have to go to a functional medicine specialist. Hopefully some allergy immunologists out there are starting to dig a little bit deeper into this. I mean, they obviously have an understanding. And I don't think there's, this isn't like a voodoo kind of science, right? I mean, there's research out there. This is, you know, people are starting to learn about this. I just wish it was more prevalent. But how do you recommend people start to have a conversation about getting tested? You know, even if it's from their family care doctor, because the problem with our current healthcare system is you need a diagnosis in order to have a test that actually prevents you from having that diagnosis in the first place. And so like, how do you, how do you recommend somebody opening up this conversation with somebody? Well, I would sort of ask your doctor a question. So how I went about it was, okay, doctor, please tell me, what are the, what are the sort of causes of what I'm having? You know, like, what are some of the explanations? And where can we go with this? And how can I learn more? And what can I do to support myself outside of coming to your office? And that's really where it stopped. The conversation ended because there was no talk of nutrition. There was no talk about lifestyle. There was just come back in six months and get tested again. And that just didn't make any sense to me because clearly there was something that was going on that they either didn't know or couldn't look into further. For whatever reason there is, right, I'm not, I don't know from the clinical side of things. I'm just looking at it from a patient side where I just kind of felt like I hit a wall. And there beyond a certain point, there was just no more discussion that could be had because it just was, I felt like I was getting shut down essentially. For whatever reason it was. And yeah, so just being able to ask the questions and start to open that door and say, what can I do from a lifestyle perspective? Because I recently went to the doctor and they told me, oh, you're fine, you're this and you're that. And I'm like, wait, but I remember from when I was going to see a functional doctor, they told me that this was not normal. So I'm going to have to go back and just basically get a second opinion and look at it from a different perspective because our environment definitely has an effect on our health. Absolutely. There's no argument about it. It may have been maybe 15, 20 years ago, back when endocrine disruption was just becoming a field that it was kind of up for debate. But I don't think there's room wiggle room anymore. I think the evidence is so compelling that we can't avoid it. And you mentioned something very important there in terms of patients feeling like they're shut down, right? And that happens way too often, especially in the traditional sense of medicine when you go see a family care physician or somebody else. There's limited time, 15, 30 minutes. You ask for a test. They don't really find a reason to get it. So yeah, I agree with you. I do think it's worth getting a second opinion. If you can afford, you know, maybe go and see a fee for service provider going and getting certain lab tests done. But then also just doing the research and advocating, right? I think that like home of disruption, it's there's so much to get into and it can definitely overwhelm people. But even just starting like slow, understanding what these abbreviations stand for, where you can find them, what are the small steps that you can take? And then also just, you know, also seeing other patient stories, right? And I understand that the plural of anecdotes, not data, but you need enough anecdote out there for people to start researching into something. And I think we're definitely starting to see more and more people have issues with talks. And then getting detoxed and then feeling better after it. So it leads me to ask you, you know, do you have any opinion on like detox, quote unquote, like sonas running like exercise, like what are those? Is there anything people can do to really just get rid of these toxins out? Yeah, you can just support your detox pathways or organs, your liver and your kidneys just by again, staying hydrated, reducing stress. That's been a huge one for me. But sauna, there's a large amount of data also on red light therapy and getting adequate sun exposure before a certain time period, you know, so you can kind of offset any detrimental effect of sun exposure. So early morning, that can actually help. It has helped me significantly with my sleep. And just in general, overall, well-being just upon waking, just, I think, you know, I just try to look outside, just open a window and just try to get that bright light into my eyes. And it just really helps to wake me up, you know, not if for anything else. But those are the things that we can do easily and getting adequate movement, right? Because we need to move our bodies. We are built to move. We're not built to sit. The more you sit, the worse off you'll be. So of course, having, what was I mentioning earlier, the sulfur compounds in your diet, that's huge. That's huge. So the more you clean up your environment, the less burden you have on your body and on your organs. Because just breathing oxygen, we need glutathione to offset that oxygen that we're breathing. We need oxygen to survive. You're not going to stop breathing, right? So we got to help our bodies out, you know, because over time, the liver gets taxed. Your kidneys get taxed. So you got to make sure you're sweating, moving, sleeping, getting enough water because that's going to help too. If you're not pooping every day, that's a problem. Pooping is also a major pathway of detoxification. So yeah, and one that many don't think about. And, you know, as a physical man, as a rehab dog, we almost call ourselves the poop specialist and the clinic, you know, we're not GI dogs, but we're always asked for patients every day. Hey, when was your last bowel movement? So we definitely understand that since it's a huge reason as to why people don't feel good. It is that they aren't, they aren't moving their balance. So it's healthy. And that's healthy a key. But I love everything you're saying, right? It's all the pillars that we talk about so often, you know, on these episodes. And I'm glad you mentioned red light therapy. I didn't realize that. We actually brought on one of the representatives from Juve, the red light therapy company on this podcast, not too long ago. So for the listeners who haven't checked that out, they can check out that red light therapy to understand that. As far as labs go, is there anything specific, you know, like first time if somebody wants to understand how much talks they have in their body that they should be getting? I think it really depends on your situation. And I think it's up to the provider, especially in my case, there were tests that I didn't even think of. I didn't ask to get tested for toxicity. It was just, hey, these are all my symptoms. These are the problems. This is my history. What should I do? And it was the functional doctor that guided me and told me what test to get. And it came up that I had some symptoms that were consistent with heavy metal toxicity. So I got tested for that and then it came back positive. So then it turned out that I had feelings in my teeth. I got those removed. I felt a ton better. I felt so much better after I got those malgum feelings out. But that's just another thing is it's really not easy to say because we're exposed to so many different things that really depends on your lifestyle, where you're at, the products you use, the foods you eat, the type of home that you live in. If you're living near a highway, a busy road, I mean, you can have so many different, different toxic, toxicants in your body at any given time. But the million marker test is one that you can do on your own. But of course, it's out of pocket. But it's wild, right? I mean, the fact that you're saying it depends just goes to show how, you know, how many toxins there are out there, right? I mean, if somebody were to say, hey, like, I, I cardiovascular risk, all right, you're going to get like a lipid panel, you might do like an EKG test, you know, there's other things that you can get. If you're looking at the liver or like the GI system, there's things you can get. But when you talk about this, it's just that's how rampant, you know, this issue can be. So I, you know, that's something that just really resonates with me is that, wow, this is something that we really need to look at. And again, yeah, I think a lot of these are kind of out of pocket, but at least getting that second opinion if your primary doctor, whoever may not agree with getting those tests. I do want to ask you about obesity. So I've read this really fascinating article called slime mold, time mold. I think that's the website and then article named a chemical hunger. And it was talking about why obesity happens or why obesity is happening in this world and why it's becoming a global, you know, or an epidemic. And it wasn't what we think it was. It wasn't because we're eating too much, it wasn't because we're being more sedentary. In the end, they found it's actually the chemicals. It's the pollutants. There are water, there are soil that have been accumulating and actually causing obesity in the end. At least this is their theory. Any thoughts on that? Anything that you've dug up through research that you can validate? Oh, 100%. It's a real thing. They're called obese agents. So again, it's the same chemicals. It's the bisphenols, the thalates, the PFAS, the PCBs, the dioxins. They're all acting through similar pathways and they're causing either increased fat deposition, decreasing your metabolic rate. I mean, there's so many different ways in this pathway of a dipogenesis that can be affected. So it's and it also makes it more difficult to lose weight because so interestingly enough, the fatter you are, the more body fat you have, the more toxic you are because these toxic chemicals accumulate in body fat. So if you've ever had anyone that has lost weight, a significant amount of weight in a short period of time, if they look unhealthy, it's because they're releasing all of those toxicants out of their fat. And it's too much for the body to handle at once. Yeah, it can get pretty weird because these chemicals make you fat and then the fatter you are, the more of those chemicals you have in your body. So it's just a never ending vicious cycle. Absolutely. I mean, this was like a three to four hour article read. There's like 10 different parts to it. But like, it's the nerd in us that I think, like I can send it to you, it's super fascinating. But they go through like metabolic ward studies, they go through exercise studies, they go through everything and have proven that, hey, it's not what we think it is. Like, sure, it's the foods we eat because of all the toxins that get into it. So you know, junk food primarily and things like that that is causing the obesity, but it's not the junk itself, it's the stuff that comes with it. So super fascinating. And I've been telling a lot of people to read it because, I mean, even obesity medicine is becoming, you know, more and more prevalent and especially with the medications that are coming out that like semi-glutide and things like that that can really show rapid weight loss. But now they're showing that people can regain that weight, right? So I think having that understanding for the listeners is very important. So cool. Okay. I'm going to have to link some articles to in the show notes that talk about that. So Ivan, what are you most excited for? What, like, in this next step of toxicology, where's the research heading? Is there anything that you're particularly excited for? Yeah, I'm excited just for environmental medicine and environmental toxicity to hit the forefront, to hit the main stage for people to really start to see the changes happening in the clinic, to where people feel supported and understood and learn something that they didn't know before. That could be really affecting their health. But maybe they have a family history of something, right? And they're like, oh my gosh, it's all this time. My family has been a devout user of this laundry detergent. And then once we stopped using it, you know, people started to feel better or something like that, just being able to connect the dots between your environment and how you feel. That's super exciting. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, I definitely do want to tell the audience out there to go on social and follow you. I think, you know, there's so many people out there who are quote unquote doing what you're doing. You have the research. So you actually pull out like the PubMed, you talk about it, you're highlighting exactly what's going on. So I love that because now I can trust you, too, you're also doing like product reviews as well. And then three, you're giving like alternatives, right? So there's some action. So thank you for doing that. I definitely want to tell the audience to go out there and then follow you for that because you're definitely spreading good education out there. Thank you. Yeah. I also want to tell you about the research because there is way too much misinformation out there. And we need to know what's actually been found from a scientific perspective that can substantiate all of this stuff because a lot of it is, you know, when they say, oh, everything that you put on your skin gets absorbed in 26 seconds. I mean, there is literally no substantiation to that or beeswax candles can purify the air. There is no substantiation to that. So we, I, I'm the kind of person that I need to know is this, is this legit or not? I'm not going to, you know, just start spreading fake news, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important. It's really important. It's really important. Yeah. Exactly. For sure. So tell me about Swalscore though, because I know you're, you're part of that. Yeah. Swalscore is an online wellness platform, basically curated products for wellness, supplements, personal care products. I'm actually spearheading the campaign to add safer cosmetics there. So products that I personally have vetted, I've gone through all the ingredients list. I mean, this is really important for us to change the way that people view products. And it's basically vetted by doctors and scientists like myself. So I stand behind the Swalscore. I'm so proud of the fact that I can help to shape the landscape of how people view wellness and how people get access to these safer products and support these companies that are actually, you know, that actually care about people and the planet. It's not just profit, you know. And I believe that we can really change the market very rapidly with the right education, with the right knowledge. People know, hey, let's support this brand and not that one, for example. You know, this, you know, it was a big polluter. We got to get away from that because they haven't helped us. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's the issue, right? I think these quote unquote unhealthy products, they're, they're controlled by these big monopolies, big corporations. They're such a stronghold. So we are seeding this revolution, if I can say, in terms of these smaller indie companies and other startups trying to make a difference, but it needs more backing. And I think people are listening, you know, I definitely do think people are listening. So we are headed in the right direction. What's next for you, anything, anything that you have coming out? Yeah, I'm hoping in 2023 to write a book. I want to help people just have a full home detox. Low-talk is living made easy. So I want to demystify it, make it simple, actionable, step by step checklist, that kind of thing. That's just how my mind works. And I think, I think it can really help a lot of people. So I'm excited about that. I just want to reach a massive audience. I would love that. I'm, I'm excited for that. I mean, a checklist will be great. I mean, after everything we've talked about, I mean, we'll really skin the surface. Unlike, you know, it's been an hour and we've literally just skinned the surface. So I feel like people are going to be like, wow, I really need a checklist. I really just need to understand kind of black, white, gray. And that's going to, that's going to be a huge service for other people. But you're talking about reaching the masses. I mean, hey, you have, your Instagram is definitely skyrocketed. And for all the right reasons, tell us about your socials or maybe websites. Where can people follow you? So I'm on Instagram. I also have a weekly email series called Low Talks Tuesdays, where I go deep about toxic chemicals in our everyday products, how to avoid them, what are the alternatives. And I basically break it down and make it simple and easy to digest. So you can find me on Instagram. You can join my email list that's at safe and greedy academy.com slash email. Awesome. We are definitely going to put all of that in the show notes for easy access. Ivan, I want to thank you so much for coming on here again. I can't say it enough. Everything you've been doing. So glad I found you on social media actually through Dr. G and now through your social media and everything you're doing. You're always showing up in my algorithm for good reasons, like in everything. But I just want to ask you here our last question that we ask everybody is, how do we put the health back in health care? With educating consumers so that we can advocate on our own behalf. I like that. Very short, sweet. Put to the point. Love it. All right. Thank you so much, Ivan. Yeah. Thank you. If you'd like what you heard today, be sure to check out the show notes for great resources to learn more about toxicology and also where to find Ivan. For me, a key takeaway from this episode is framed by considering something that was actually shared during a previous conversation what Tracy do is in episode 35. And that's the practice of good, better and best. So even though some great information was shared today, remember to first focus on the big rocks before paying attention to the pebbles and sand. And as always, we would love to hear from you. So please reach out, let us know what you think. Now before you sign out, please remember the important disclaimer that everything in this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute the practice of medicine, nor should be construed as medical advice. No physician-patient relationship is formed and anything discussed in this podcast does not represent the views of our employers. We'd recommend that you seek the guidance of your personal physician regarding any specific health-related issues. However, if you join the show, please be sure to subscribe, review and share with anyone who you think will gain value from this. And until next time, thank you for listening.