83. The Science of Red Light Therapy | Wes Pfiffner

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined. A podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in healthcare. Hey everyone, our guest today is Wes Piffner, Director of Business Development of Juve, which is a company that is bringing red light therapy to the masses. Now in this episode, Wes and I delve into the mechanism of red light therapy, the application of red light therapy, and who should use red light therapy, and why you should make it a part of your weekly routine, hope you enjoy. All right, welcome back Medicine Redefiners, Wes, thank you so much for joining our show. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to delve into all things red light therapy, right, and I was just thinking about this on the ride home today, right, when we were born and we grow up, light isn't really taught to us, right, it's something we start to understand, light for dark, as we go through grade school, we start to understand the rainbow, all the different colors, Roy G5, we look in the house, we see like, you know, incandescence of yellow, white, and then maybe when we get to physics class, we start to learn about wavelengths and things like that, red, blue, ultraviolet. But red light and red light therapy is something you kind of have to sit down with and understand, especially as it's now sort of becoming more prevalent in the biohacking space, let's say. I want to delve into your background, how did you become introduced to red light therapy? Oh, I'd say, you know, that's like, we could be here a long time for that, but, you know, it kind of stems from more of my family's curiosity for alternative health, and really seeing like traditional ways of medicine really wasn't kind of all of what we thought it was, and it really was my, my elder, my two older sisters and two brother-in-laws that got me into red light because they, they helped found Juve, but before Juve, the reason, you know, it even got to that point was my family started to get really curious on, on different ways to take care of your body, and really help, you know, as, as some of my older siblings got older, my parents got older like, stuff just arises, different health challenges, and looking at alternative ways to take care of those. So, they're, I remember, you know, I'm originally from the Midwest, so alternative health there is like non-existent, you know what I mean? Like, it's pretty much, you, you, you go to the doctor, if you're sick, you take, you know, get a prescription, and then that's how you solve it, or you try to do something over the counter at like Walgreens, CVS, anything like that. And so, I remember this because I was like, going through school, and, you know, working, and I remember that, you know, first hearing about like, them talking about bone broth, and nutrients in like, and like, and I was like, bone broth, I was like, that's gross, like bone broth, you're drinking broth made out of bones, you know, you know, hearing the concept over organic, first kind of getting into organic. I remember when, so I'm, I'm from Iowa, and I remember when Des Moines, which is the capital, just got a whole foods, and it was like, the first organic grocery store ever to hit, to hit Iowa. And so, you know, getting into more alternative health stuff like organic, grass fed meats, stuff like that kombucha, and it was my oldest sister Melissa, who she was dealing with a skin irritation, eczema. And anybody that knows eczema can be very irritating, it's dry, it's just, it can be unpleasant. And she had tried so many things to get rid of it. Diet changes, you know, tons of things, and nothing really worked. So, she, you know, was kind of doing some googling and looking around, and, you know, she, she saw that red light therapy. You know, somebody was like, hey, I did it, worked for me. I don't know if there's any science on it, but it worked for me. She found a local, a local tanning salon that actually converted, you know, a tanning bed into a red light bed. So, she went there, signed up for some treatments, and she saw a ton of success with it after a couple of weeks. And not only did she see success with her skin, but she started feeling other, like, she just felt better. Her sleep was better, she just felt better. And she couldn't really, you know, like, there's not, no one was really talking about it at that point, so she couldn't really say definitively, but it's like, hey, there's something to this. Well, her husband, my brother-in-law, he just happens to be an engineer. So she's like, hey, is there something you can, like, work up, so I can just do this at home, like, can you do, like, you know, a makeshift one, like, do it yourself project? And he experimented with a couple of things. He at first tried heat bulbs, like, heat lamps, because they do deliver in that spectrum. And she's like, hey, you know, she tried it for a little while, and it feels good. Like, I like the heat of it, but I don't feel the same effects, you know, that I was feeling from, from the LEDs. Well, then they figured out, oh, you know, a heat bulb is, does deliver rad and near for it, but it's delivering a broad spectrum. So you're getting so much, it's, you're, you're not getting a really good dosage of just rad and near and for it. So then they figured that part out, the LEDs, right? And then, by that point, some discussions had been, had been going further, and then, you know, my, my sisters are pretty close, and so, my brother in law Scott, he spent a lot of his career in the medical device space. So kind of, all things kind of merged, it's like, hey, you know, there's currently nothing on the market for this. There's tons of science that's way beyond skin health. This potentially could be a product. And so I remember hearing about this, all kind of like in the background, like, like, my mom would keep me up to date with kind of what my sisters had going on and stuff like that. And I remember thinking like, it's nuts. Like I remember they're like, hey, we're going to do this panel. We found, we found somebody that can make it for us. Like, we're going to, we're going to try to do this. And I remember thinking like, no one's going to buy that. Like, light can't do that. Like, I was very skeptical, very negative, because my, my, my, my, like, I've always been like a gym rat. I've always like, you know, I used to take supplements and pre workout and, and protein drinks. And I really looked up to like, you know, like athletes, pro athletes. So, and I'm like, they're not using this stuff like this is stupid, you know? And so I was skeptical for a while. And then finally, I started using it. Like I was just like, what the hell? Like I'll start using it. Like I think I got sick, you know, something like that. So I finally started using it. And I definitely noticed a difference in it. And specifically from a performance and recovery standpoint, because I've always been, if you know, Ben and Jim Rat and Ben in tune to, hey, if I do something different, I know like, it's, it's got to be that because it's the only thing I've done different. I'm kind of a creature of habit that way. So, and I didn't even know there was a lot of data around Brad and near for like there would be for performance and recovery. And then once I, once I started experiencing that and seeing some changes with myself, I then was like, hey, I think this can be, can be really, can be big. And I want to be involved in it because I think it's, it's really cool. And I think the biggest conduit right now is not a lot of people know about what it can do. And so I, at that point, I thought this, because this is something that, you know, could be really for performers, pro athletes, people that really want to, you know, crossfitters, all that sort of thing. But since then, I mean, it's gone way beyond just performance and recovery for what it can do. So, that's kind of how I got involved. And I just started, I just started doing, um, ending I could for Juvena. So I worked just for free, um, on the side helping them do, do certain stuff. And then, you know, some things kind of, kind of happened. And then, um, I became kind of full time after about, after about eight months. That's awesome. That's, that's, it's really cool to hear, right? Because light is one of those things where, if, you know, a cord of red light, right, it'll penetrate your skin and then it's just doing wonders. And it's hard to put something tangible to that, right? Which is probably what you were feeling as, as a skeptic is how the head can light do something. Whereas, go to the gym and I'm a gym rat, too, you're pumping the weights, pumping the iron, you're feeling tired, your heart rate goes up, and then you look in the mirror, and you're like, all right, see, there's a cause and effect, and it's really hard to kind of make that association, um, when it comes to red light therapy and things. So we know that there's a beneficial effect, red light therapy. How did we first come to know that kind of where, where's that history take us? How did somebody first discover that, hey, there might be some good stuff. Like, like, most, like, most things is accident, like, complete accident. So I can't remember his, I can't remember, I'm going to butcher the guys, um, the, the doctor's name, um, eat something mustard or something like that. And he was actually, he was actually using a ruby laser and he was trying to radiate like a, a tumor off of a rat's tail. So he was trying thinking it would burn it off. And when it ended up doing, instead of burning it off, he noticed, um, it didn't do that. You know, but what he noticed is it helped stimulate hair growth. So it was like, what the hell? You know what I mean? Completely different than what he had thought. So they clearly saw at that point, like, this stimulated some sort of growth. Um, and that's what kicked it off, like, complete accident. Um, but even before that, they, they had discovered, like, the benefits of light and specifically sunlight. Um, I can't remember either in the, in the, in the, uh, uh, 17 hundreds or 1800s, um, with, with rickets for children. Um, they noticed that kids that, that weren't getting out and sun had weak bones, stuff like that. And then once they got out and then it wasn't until like the late 1900s, like 1930s, that they actually definitively proved like vitamin D. Um, even though, even a lot of the other vitamins weren't proved until the early 19th century. So kind of what I'm kind of getting at is, you know, both, both you and I, I mean, we're, we're, we're both fairly young and lights just not talked about as far as health. I mean, you learn about it in the intro, you said, you know, rainbows, colors, and that's kind of our, our conception of light is, is that it's, it's visible stuff, right? I, we don't look at it as energy, but then when you actually look at the scientific term, it's electromagnetic radiation. And then when you start thinking about that and then you think about the sun is the original source of light, right? And the sun powers the entire universe as we know. You take the sun away, everything is gone. So light's pretty damn important. I mean, it grows all of our food, right? It grows, you know, we don't, you don't have to eat plants, but the animals eat plants, right? And you take those away, like everything's gone. So light is really, really important. And I think as us as, as, you know, as, you know, human species and civilization, et cetera, I think we're just scratching the surface on what light can do, you know? And I think, you know, there, there's a lot of fear out there of, of, of the sun. And, and yes, it can cause damage, just like everything, you know, too much of anything is, can cause damage. But there's so, so many benefits, you know, to sunlight. There's even a chart I've seen before where you like, like a ton of like high, high diseases and like, like lung cancer, different things like that. You can see actually diminish as you go into climates where the sun is like stronger. So the UV is higher. And versus other areas. So it's really interesting when you look at just how important, you know, light, light is. Yeah, absolutely, you know, and, you know, you being from Cali, you got it lucky, you can kind of step out right now, that's a degree of weather, you get some sunshine in. But even here, I mean, in the Northeast, I've been definitely making a point to get out in the morning, stop using sunglasses, you know, on my computer, letting that, the light enter in. And obviously this has been talked about more and more about setting the circadian rhythm, getting that morning light in, just so your body understands like, hey, this is daytime, it's time to get awake. And sometimes I can replace a lot of the coffee and take that we're taking. And that morning sunlight can help you set up for success when it comes to your nighttime routine. Yeah, but take me through a little bit about the red light during sunset because that's from what I know, I think that's where we kind of see the benefits to watching the sunset. Yeah, and part of that is like why the sky is red. If you think about it, red is, it's the longest spectrum, the wave like this is the longest. So as the earth starts to go down, those are the only wavelengths that actually can get through the atmosphere at that time. So that's why sunrise and sunset are primarily red. It's the only colors that are starting to make it through. And that's why once, you know, once the sun is actually risen during the day, right? The sky turns blue and that's because blue and green hit the, hit the atmosphere and they just scatter. And so it just fills the sky blue. So, you know, there when you hear like, is it the best time to get red and near friend naturally from the morning sunlight? And I would say no because the sun is furthest away at that point, but you are getting that single concentration just those specific wavelengths. And what's interesting about all of that, right, is their red and near friend actually may be a primer for your skin for the harsher wavelengths that come later in the day. And so they've actually proved this out in a study that folks that did red and near friend like therapy treatments would go into the sun than actually have better protection from the sun and they equated to like 15 SPF. So they're wondering if like, you know, they kind of theorize, you know, and you can see in studies how they theorize or, you know, the discussion section of studies. And they're like, this could be like Mother Nature's natural process of like the sun, you know, these wavelengths kind of help primus to protect us for the other wavelengths that come later on in the day. And as humans, now in this modern lifestyle, we don't get that morning sun, right? We completely avoid that. And in fact, most people, especially ones that don't like the sun, they lather up in skin, you know, in lotion and stuff. And then they go out at the harshest times of the day, you know, and I mean, so, um, yeah, that, that, that, it's kind of interesting. That's super cool, right? For any parents out there with young ones, if a child ever asked, why is this guy blue? I mean, you got the answer now. So, you know, no one has to avoid that question, say, I don't know. One more, one more fact there, one more fact there too, that's very interesting is, as we think about colors, um, it's actually like, when you think like this Christmas tree behind me, for anybody watching this, Christmas tree, everyone knows it's green. It's only green because that's the only color that that treat doesn't absorb. It's reflecting that color. So, that's just what we pick up on. So, it's kind of funny because you're like, is it really green? Because it's, it's, it's kicking green away. That's why we're seeing green. It's the only color. So, that's pretty interesting too. Absolutely. Physics, man. Physics back in, back in physics class. I like it. So, take me through my life therapy, then. It'll be how it works. Like, how was it good for the skin? Yeah. So, you know, and then it's going to be same thing for any other area of your body. So, skin, eyes, you know, et cetera, is, it's red and near and red, have a unique ability to help stimulate healthy cellular function and specifically the mitochondria. And for those, you know, you mentioned like high school class, for those back, you know, back in biology, the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell, right? It's what actually powers the cell that creates, um, identifying triphosphate. So, ATP, uh, and red and near and red has an unique ability to uptick ATP. And, you know, so a lot of people think, oh, so it's like getting my morning cup of coffee. Well, kind of, it's a little bit different, you know, that, that you could say it fancy that way. But really, where red and near for a, like, shines, is cells that are under oxidative stress. Uh, you know what I mean? And so, cells that are struggling, whether it's, you know, muscle tissue, um, uh, cells in the muscles, uh, any other areas of the body dealing with something acute, that, that's under oxidative stress. And what it can do is really help turn those cells back to a balance, um, and so it gets out of oxidative stress back to homeostasis, which then increases ATP. And then, you know, that can, that's why you hear a lot of like an increase in ATP. Well, it's really for cells that are under, under oxidative stress. But what we do see from cell, healthy cellular function is it kicks off a brief period of reactive oxygen species and like, um, cell signaling. So almost like it kind of, I kind of like to use the analogy of it, it's like kicks off a circuit board, right, like, like electrical and kind of things start communicating a little bit better. Um, so that's kind of the base mechanism and that kind of translates to every area of the body that has mitochondria that this light can affect, um, you know, because a lot of people will ask, well, it is a different shining it on, you know, your elbow or shining it on like, it's been popular over the years to shine it, you know, for males on the testes, you know, and it means to help, to help try to produce more testosterone. So it's the kind of the same base mechanism everywhere is it's helping, um, helping ensure healthy cellular cellular function by affecting the mitochondria. Gotcha. And I'm sure people will ask this too, right? How does red light even penetrate? But it kind of goes back to what you were saying. It has the longest wavelength, right? So in comparison to violent and ultraviolet, which is shorter by higher frequency, I believe, it's not going to penetrate as far, right? So this is why in like medical devices, when you use like a pulse oximeter, it's red light because it's actually able to penetrate the skin and kind of get that feedback. Is that am I, am I saying that correctly? No, no, you're, you're correct. And you got to add the near and thread component in there too, which is, um, actually going to penetrate even deeper, that deeper than the red, because that, that is a longer wavelength than the red. Um, but yeah, no, you're, you're, you're dead on. I mean, that's why you'll see in the esthetician community, you know, they use blue light, right? They, you will use blue light to help with an offset acne because it's, it's a very high frequency wavelength, but it doesn't penetrate very deep. So they actually use it to kind of kill bacteria, uh, in the acne. And then they'll follow it up with, with a red light treatment to try to help rejuvenate those skin cells. Gotcha. So you were talking about the one doctor working with mice, um, and they saw increased in hair growth. How did, how did that exactly happen? What was kind of the pathophysiology, so to speak on, on that, um, well, if, if we're talking about healthy cellular function, that, that's kind of it. It affected mitochondria and that definitely wasn't proven at that point. I think that happened in like the 19, the 1960s. I mean, since then now there's, there's a lot of, um, hair devices out there. Like for, for helping stimulate, stimulating hair growth, um, you know, what I mean? And so it's still that, that kind of thing, but I don't know the exact, like, nitty-gritty details of how it does that to like the hair follicles, but I know it stems from the same, the same aspect. So, you know, take your eyes, for example, there was a, a clinical study just, you know, I think like two over the last two years that showed pretty incredible results for aging eyes. So like folks in their 40s, um, just exposing their eyes like three minutes of, of deep red, helped stimulate like better eyesight, you know, and that lasted like up to a week. And a part of it and what they talk about is it helped bring back and, and those, uh, mitochondria in the, in the eyes, they helped kick off more energy because I didn't know this, but the, the, your eyes, those, those organs age faster. I think that any other organ in the body, um, and so it would make sense that you see a benefit because of that same type of, type of mechanism of action. So it's definitely really interesting. I mean, lasers were the pre-dominant, um, uh, form of how you delivered the therapy for a long time. And it wasn't until, I want to say the early 1990s that actually NASA started experimenting with, with LEDs in space. And then that started to kind of commercialize after that as a lot of, you know, tech can, can kind of be, right? Government uses it and then it kind of translates into the consumer feel. But then after that switching to LEDs, it was really dominated by the, uh, esthetician community, um, for, for the next like several decades. And then it wasn't really until, uh, Juve that we started really educating on, hey, this is way beyond, you know, skin health. Um, there's a lot of other other benefits here. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think you're right about the eyes because from what I remember, I think it's one of the organ systems that doesn't have like proper immune function, um, compared to the rest of the body. So it's tough for, you know, circulating blood to kind of get there, clear up anything. And so if you can't do that, those oxidative species like you're talking about are kind of just going to keep adding up. And so if you're adding that photo modulation there, you can at least repair it directly, um, from an external, external site or external force, um, which is really, really cool to see. And then get that increase in blood flow as well, um, I think when you talk back to working out, I wonder how much of that, you know, was playing a role. Oh, totally. I think, I mean, you just mentioned blood flow. I think that's such a, a key thing with, with like aging and when things eventually can go like, like really bad is, is really just a decrease in blood flow, like not able to get nutrients throughout, throughout the body. Um, in fact, I was just, I was just talking about this the other day to somebody, um, because we were talking about like injury and how you used to like heal injuries, like it. So if you rolled your ankle, I'm sure you're, your whole life, everybody listening, what are you supposed to do right when you roll your ankle or shortly after that? Put ice on it, right? Put ice on it. But you think about it. Why, why am I putting ice on it? Because that's going to cut off blood flow, which can then lower inflammation, but I want the acute inflammation. That's my body putting like a bandaid over it and healing. So why am I putting ice on it? So like the conversation then is, okay, ice doesn't, in fact, there's not any clinical data really support ice speeding up recovery, like it doesn't exist. But what you can use ice for and I recommend not doing even long, anything longer than like five minutes is, um, is using it as a mild pain relief. Like if you want to try to relieve pain, use ice instead of like an ibuprofen or a Tylenol, you can use ice, but definitely does not help do that because it's cutting off all your, your circulation of blood flow, which is actually helping you recover faster. 100% as a P.M. and our doctor, I endorse that message that is very, right? And this is why we're seeing people even do PRP, right? Like bringing more blood into joints that are, you know, all starts, right? Is or a cartilage damage because it has those growth factors that has that immune system coming with the blood that can now stimulate, um, a better recovery. Um, and so speaking to you, what were the exact thing? Like were you measuring anything like HRB or things like that? Um, when you were using the red light therapy, like how did you specifically know that your recovery was good or workouts were getting better and your sleep was good? At that point, I hadn't, I hadn't jumped into the world of like, um, you know, performance trackers or anything like that. Like now I, I now use an or ring I've, I've used wook before. Um, so now I'm pretty keen on that stuff. But at that point, like I wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't tracking anything. What I noticed was, um, you know, for several years, like I always had, I always took a pre workout, always took a pre workout. I like would almost be kind of like depressed if I didn't have a pre workout because anybody that's ever taken a good pre workout, like it really does increase, like nitric oxide, like you just, like pumps, muscle pumps, any, any anything you're doing, whether it's arms or chest or a leg workout, like you just feel that you have a ton of energy. I think they're terrible for you, but you know, I, they're, um, so I, I was very keen on that. So what I noticed when I first started using, because I was like, okay, I'm going to try to use this before the gym. So I was always an early, early wake up at like four, 30 in the morning. And instead of taking a pre workout, I, and then I had quick pre workout at that point for a while. Um, and so I started using the, the, I started doing a treatment, like a full, like a, I think, at that point, at that point, we didn't have the full body setups. We just have like single panels. And so I started using a single panel, like 10 minutes on the front of my body, 10 minutes on the back. And I noticed, um, the increase in blood flow, like I noticed like why am I getting such a crazy muscle pump? Um, it reminded me of when I took pre workout. And so definitely that's anecdotal at, at that point, but when you, when you look in the research, a huge mechanism of what happens is nitric oxide gets, gets released into the bloodstream. And there is an increase in blood flow. And you can see basal diowation pretty quickly. If you're standing in, you know, putting your, like I can put my hand in front of the light and within like 45 seconds to a minute, my veins start to pop. Um, so you definitely feel it. So I felt it from a, a performance standpoint, like to start my workout with blood flow. And I was like, okay, this is, and at that point, I didn't, I didn't know there was anything, any clinical data or anything to support, like what I was feeling. Um, and then I, and then just the recovery aspect, right? I just less soreness, um, didn't have that same, like type of fatigue. Like just felt better from an energy standpoint. And at that point, too, I, um, I started to implement other stuff to like ice, ice bass. I started to do, um, not for recovery, but just for some of the other, other benefits that can come along with that. Um, I started really mitigating light, like, like anybody watching, um, you know, you're wearing, you're wearing blue light blockers, started wearing those, started focusing on my sleep. I started cutting out different things out of my diet and processed, processed foods. Do you kind of led me into all of that, um, kind of kind of where, where we first really resonated from, um, you know, a consumer standpoint was focused in alternative health, right? That are more like you're talking about in that biohacking community where they're already doing a lot of this stuff and, um, some, some folks that we worked with, you know, really gravitated towards it. So I started doing a lot of things all at once. And now I've been doing the like, like, you know, four to five times a week minimum, you know, for the last, like four or five years. So it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly. I will say the benefit I noticed the most now, which is funny that we're talking about eyes is actually eyesight. If I fall out of, yeah, if I fall out of doing treatments, um, and mainly like my wellness routine, everything got, got just thrown out the window when my, when my daughter was born, just because your life, your life changes when, when you bring a little child in the world, right? And so, you know, I was lucky, you know, when I just, your rhythm gets thrown off, everything gets thrown off. And so I, uh, there'd be times I'd just go, go out, go times without using, using the device, um, and I don't have contacts or glasses. And I started to see like my vision was like kind of getting worse. Like I couldn't really see street, street signs super well. And then I started using the light again, got, got into a rhythm. And my eyesight was sharper. So I personally felt that, um, that, and that's probably what I noticed, uh, the most now is, is the eyesight. Like if I stopped using that, I noticed, um, uh, diminishing in like how my eyes can perform. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, a lot of what we're talking about are benefits, right? And I think a lot of people when they, when they Google red light therapy, they see a lot of benefits and they don't see many negative things. If any, um, and, you know, in today's society, we're taught when you see that it's either a magic product, a magic pill, and it's too good to be true. Or, you know, this thing actually truly does work. Um, how efficacious has the, you know, has red light therapy been, you know, based off the data, um, what type of data is out there to say, Hey, this stuff is, is the real stuff. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, there's a ton of clinical data. I mean, I want to say now there, there's well over 5,000, uh, clinical studies, um, published clinical studies. And there's great meta analysis out there, um, you know, for those that don't know what a meta analysis is, it's somebody that looks at a ton of studies and kind of summarizes it. Um, so there's, there's lots of those for skin health, pain, uh, inflammation, stuff like that. So there, there's a lot. And where it's primarily been the bulk of it right now is like skin health, um, pain and inflammation. And then, um, there's, you know, there's different things around like wound healing, um, seeing wounds heal, like quicker stuff like that. But there is this new emerging category that like, you know, we're, we're experiencing it from just like, um, you know, a company and then also just all the feedback we get from customers of like stuff that, that isn't necessarily supported strongly in it through the published clinical data. And some of that is, you know, like hormonal benefits. Like we get a lot of people saying, Hey, it's increased my testosterone. We've actually, we participated in a small, a small research study with a group out of Minnesota called, called bristle cone medical. And we, uh, we looked at hormones in both male and female, um, for, for 12 weeks. And they were using, using, using our, our products on a daily basis. And there was two groups. One was just using our product and they were on a standard American diet. And then the other group was, uh, switch from a standard American diet to a, to a keto like whole foods diet and then added in red light. And both saw amazing results for their, for their testosterone, um, males, both, uh, total and free females saw a tremendous benefit to their hormones and a balancing of their hormones. So if they were too high in progesterone, it brought it down. If they're too low and like estrogen, it brought it, brought it up. Like it brought more to a balance. So when you look at all the benefits, it's like, is that going to do it for me? And the reason I say that of like starting to talk about these other areas, um, you even had somebody that had, had bells palsy and it, they didn't even expect it to do anything for that. And it cleared it up like 99% in the face. Like explain that to me like, that's wild. That's, like that is wild that it did that. And so is that going to do it for everybody that has best palsy? No, that, like that needs to be researched. We need to figure that out. And so we're in this discovery phase of what are the limits to this therapy? And why does it maybe work for like that person? But why wouldn't it work for maybe another person that has those palsy or does it work? And it clears it up 70% and not the 90% so where am I going with this? It really is how your body is going to react to it, right? At this point, like we don't know exactly how your body like, for example, you, you were, we're both fairly young. We're, looks like we're doing a lot of things for our health. I might not see a huge increase in testosterone because I might not need more testosterone, right? So is it going to give me that benefit? I don't, you know, I don't know. I know for my own personal tests, it's high for my age. Did it affect that? You know, we do have some clinical data on it now. So it's really, when you're looking at like the benefits and thinking, yes, there is a lot of solid clinical data for stuff around inflammation, pain relief, skin stuff like that. But there's this other whole side of it that is still not fully uncovered, but it's very, very exciting folks with autoimmune issues getting better. I know folks that have Lyme disease. It's helped them tremendously. I know folks that have fibromyalgia. It's helped them tremendously, you know, psoriasis, it's helped them. You know what I mean? So it's really how your body will react to it like what it needs. And it makes sense, right? If we're talking about it helps support healthy cellular function. And if your body has the energy and the cells can operate as they're intended, we're going to be healthier, right? And there can be a systemic effects all from that, even the sleep aspect. And this is interesting from people that are older, like older population. They tend to always like they report back like I'm sleeping a lot better. Well, just that alone, you know, you're, you're, I know you're, you know, that stuff, but it just improving your sleep. That has like a, a domino effect to improve your entire body and life, like just that small of a thing, you know what I mean? So it's interesting. I get excited about it because it's like, it's super exciting to be in this field because like I always, like I mentioned the vitamins earlier when they started discovering vitamins and stuff like that. And it's like, we've just scratched the surface with what light can do and circadian rhythm and how important it is. And once you can start manipulating light to your benefit and for your health, man, is it, it's powerful. Yeah, it's, it's really crazy. And I love how you mentioned that it's not necessarily a one-to-one effect because I think so many people, right? When we think about a magic pill or a quick fix, it's, I want this for this effect. One-to-one and health doesn't work that way. Health works in a way that you treat one thing. You'll start to see benefits in three, four different things. And when those start to turn around, you start to improve overall. Just like you mentioned about sleep, you have sleep. Everything starts to improve, right? And it seems like when you talk about red light therapy, a lot of it is also like that. So even though you're looking for, um, you know, skin health, well, that also might decrease your pain, which in turn helps you mentally, you know, think about certain things. And there's all, there's this whole interplay, the body's complex. And I'm curious, have you gotten many anecdotes about mental health or depression, anxiety, um, going down with, with red light? Yeah, we do. And a lot of it comes, come like this type of year, this time of year, um, right? The sun starts to go away, right? People with, um, you know, sad or different things like that. Yeah, they do. In fact, I was actually, I was just talking to a, a doctor today, um, from, from UCLA. And he's, he's really excited about stuff he's been testing with our, with, with our, uh, he's using a past device of ours. And he's, he's gonna, um, get this research stuff back going, because now, you know, COVID's kind of all those limitations and whatnot. But the early testing he was doing was around for like, like, the brain, like memory, um, there's studies to have that, that shows like it helps improve and sharpen like memory, like mental acuity. Um, there's research, there's, uh, there's another device out there that's called the, um, the, the, the V light, by light, um, and where it actually shoots, uh, lay, like light up your nose in your nasal cavity into the brain. Um, it's really interesting. And that they, they, they have, I think they've done clinical studies to help with like offset, um, like Alzheimer's dementia, um, um, post, traumatic stress disorder, like, like brain, brain injuries, TBI. So there's definitely a lot there. I mean, in Dr. Hamlin, who's a, who's a research professor, um, he was formally at Harvard. I think he's retired now. And he's in, he's, he works with quite a bit of other, like publications. And, um, he's on our scientific advisory board. And like, that's his number one, like, what he loves to study is how read in the infrared effects of the brain, um, and specifically in a lot of positive ways and, and can help actually decrease inflammation in the brain. So it's super fascinating. And then when you start talking, bringing in, talking about like, like, pulse flight and pulsing light at different frequencies, um, for your body, because as, as you know, like the brain gives off different frequencies, depending on, like, mood, like, wakefulness, sleepiness, you know what I mean? So it's really, really interesting. And, and I, I think over the next, like 10, um, to 20 years, there's just going to be explosion of, of science and understanding in, in light. I mean, we're already seeing it now. I think, I can't remember the gentleman's name, but in 2016, um, he won, he won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work in circadian rhythm. That's fairly, fairly recent, right? And so, um, just, just now understanding stuff about circadian rhythm. I, I don't know if you've ever read the book, a circadian codes by Dr. Sasha Kanda. Panda, I haven't yet, but all too much has. Oh, fortunately he's not here. Right. It's a great book because it's all about like your body and a rhythm. Every cell has its own circadian rhythm, you know what I mean? And there's, there's, there's times that you should, like, eating windows and different things like that. And it all goes with like the sun and, and the time of day. So it's fascinating. And a lot of it can get dictated by light. Yeah, yeah, I definitely want to touch on applications, but speaking of Harvard, um, there's a Harvard physician, uh, Chris Palmer. So he's been on the Tim Ferriss podcast recently and a bunch of different podcasts doing like a book tour came out with a book called Brain Energy. And his theory is that a lot of the mental disorders, like schizophrenia, PTSD, come down to metabolic health. And so he thinks they're actually metabolic disorders. And he talks about how it's the mitochondria, um, that kind of gets strapped, especially when we start, start taking, uh, antidepressants and these medications to treat certain diseases, we're actually harming the mitochondria, right? And so that's why I kind of asked you about the mental health, just to see if there is that correlation and, you know, it sure seems like there is. And so I'd be, be interested to kind of see, um, his take on it, you know, maybe, maybe I'll ask him to come on this show to, uh, to touch, to touch on the mitochondria and that and mental health. So, um, definitely cool. But let's, let's touch on application based. Um, so you've got the product, Juve, um, take me through it a little bit. So are there panels? What kind of devices do you guys have? Yeah, good, good, good question. So, you know, as I mentioned before, Juve, there really wasn't this concept of using radidium thread for, for your health. And so how do you, how do you best do that? The only way previously was like, you know, very targeted approaches, right? So like lasers, okay, you're going to use a laser, like a cold laser, like PT clinics, you know, to, you know, maybe decrease inflammation in a knee, joint, something like that. Um, or for skin health, you know, as the tissue is using it, like on the face, right? Primarily using it on the face. So those would be cost for this targeted approaches. Well, if you're looking to improve overall health, you would need to like radiate the whole body, almost, right? And so that's what we kind of, like that's the model we went to. That's kind of the origin of my sister. She went to a, uh, a tanning salon and she did a full body treatment. And so how can you do that in your own home? And so that's, that's the genesis of, of Juve. Like that's where, like the concept came from is, how can you do this at home? Because it takes consistency. You know, a one off treatment may not do you a whole lot of good. Um, and you really need to be using it consistently when I, when I talked about that study earlier, um, about for hormones, we saw a jump, um, a small jump at six weeks, but then we saw a major jump when it got to 12 weeks. So clearly like for that, and that application, um, like consistency matters, right? And so, um, um, that's, that's kind of how we, you know, Juve was kind of formulated. And so this concept of like panels, um, is, is kind of what, what we went with. And, and, and okay, how can you do that in a very cost effective, affordable way? Well, the first version of Juve, like hung on the back of your door, um, like door hooks, easy put it on, any, everybody's that a door, um, you know, you can do it, you can do it that way. And so that was our first gen, um, you know, what I mean. And then we started to get more like interest and stuff from like businesses or professional organizations like sports teams. It's like, hey, I want to treat my players. Well, the panels we have, I mean, we can't treat, you know, an NFL lineman who's six, six, 350 pounds or NBA players, right? Like those are really big people. And so we kind of were like, how can we do that? Because if you, you know, I remember, I remember even a prototype, it was like a huge panel. Like it was solid, you know, what I mean? And, um, I'll get to kind of why, why that doesn't make sense. But, um, that, that we decided not to go with, it would have been huge to ship, um, ginormous. And so we kind of settled on, uh, this modular system. And the modular system is you can actually buy individual panels and connect them together to formulate a bigger panel, right? And so we love that for two reasons. One, um, it can allow someone to start with, you know, maybe where, where, where they could at that point, right? If they can't afford to buy a large setup, you know, they can buy a single panel. Or it's for that person, maybe like skeptical, like, I don't know if this is going to work. I, let me try something small first. And then if I like it, you're not, you're not out of luck, you can just buy more panels to add to that. And so that's what we did with art with our generation two. And then our generation three, which, which, which we're currently on now, we've really perfected the way, um, you, you connect these devices. I mean, we, we really, a spared no expense in the usability of it. And that's really what we learned through all this past generation is how can we make it more easy to use? And so where we settled on with our panels is, you know, they are, uh, you know, premium quality, but yet they meet medical standards that you could act like it's safe to use like at home, right, in your home. And so we're, we're really, you know, um, you know, proud of it. Uh, it's, you know, it's performing this generation we have now. Um, it's doing, it's been doing really good. And people really love it. It's amazing, man. Um, do you have to use it in the dark or can you use it kind of in any type of light? You don't have to use it in the dark. No light, like it doesn't interfere with, with other light. So you can use it, you know, anytime the day and I like to tell people, um, anytime it's most consistent for you, because we'll get questions of like, is it better to use it at in the morning, or is it better to use it at like night? Like when? And so it really comes down to the user. Um, if you're, you know, if you're, it's best to test it out. Some people will say they'll get like, you know, they feel really stimulated and awake when they use it at night. And then other people will say like, I use it before bed and I sleep like a baby. Like I love it. Um, and so it really kind of depends on on where you're at there. But above all else, use it wherever it can fit into your routine because that's how, how we designed our products to fit your lifestyle and routine. Gotcha. You know, I was going to ask you who is this product for, but I think when we kind of touched on it and honestly, anyone can use this, even if you may not quote unquote have a particular disease, it can still obviously see benefits from it from recovery standpoint, sleep standpoint. Is there anyone who should avoid the product or avoid red light therapy in general? Yeah. Um, I mean, it's tough, right? Because like, there are some people that are extremely light sensitive. Um, but those people kind of know who they are, right? Like they know very sensitive light. Like I know there's on rare cases. Some people are like really affected badly by like sunlight. Um, and I don't, I don't, you know, I don't know why that's the case. So for remote, like most of population, it's extremely safe. Um, you know what I mean? And so there, there isn't a lot of like negative to say. Um, there are on occasion, some people will experience negative side effects such as like detox. Um, that's typically what, what we'll get back on our customer service team will get back is folks may be experienced, um, detox symptoms, right? They may have an autoimmune issue, stuff like that. And, and you know, we're not, we're not doctors. So it's best always like if you have something you're dealing with, you know, whether it's something a chronic illness or anything, always best to, to chat with your doctor before that, before using it. But in general, it's, it's fairly safe for, you know, for, for everybody. And there's not a lot of negative side effects. Now there can be negative side effects if you overdo it. And, but that's really with lasers. So lasers, you know, they're very, very, very high power. And they can actually deliver too much energy and cause damage to the cell and even burn your skin quite honestly. And that's known as a bifaseic dosage response. But LEDs, as long as it's from, you know, you know, a company that, that does the research and it's actually gone through safety testing, etc. And you know, you're exposing yourself to the actual wavelengths and not something you bought off Amazon that could maybe, maybe fry your skin or something like that. It's fairly safe. Yeah, I was going to ask is there, is there a maximum time that you can use it or, you know, is there, is there threshold where it gets a little dangerous to use it for too much? And another good question. And it's something, I mean, we could talk a lot about like the dosage protocols. In general, we do a pretty broad recommendation in our treatment guidelines, which is 10 minutes per, per treatment area. So any, any, so let's say I'm using a device like for those watching, I have a device that's about the size of a cell phone, like I could treat, like my forearm with this for 10 minutes. And then I could go maybe treat my knee, you know, for 10 minutes. So it's 10 minutes per treatment area. And that's a pretty, pretty good, you know, dosage where it's not too much, but it's enough to help ensure you're getting, you know, you're getting a proper dosage. At some point, we'll have a much better understanding of, you know, there's probably going to be different dosage protocols for, you know, for folks, because we, you know, as humans, we're all different shapes, different sizes, different skin tones and textures, right? And that can affect maybe more reflection, maybe more light lost. So at some point, maybe we'll know more about that down the road. But at this point, like a general recommendation and a safe recommendation is 10 minutes. Gotcha. Cool, man. Well, Wes, what are you most excited for, you know, with red light therapy with Juve? Obviously, there's a lot of research. Like you said, it's a very young field. There's a lot coming out. But from your perspective, where are you thinking, you know, the next maybe two to five years, where are we going to see kind of red light therapy go? Yeah, you know, where I get most excited about is, is the research side of it. And where, like, what are the use cases for it? And proving out that use case that, like, what I believe is that red light therapy is something everybody, you know, should be doing to help ensure healthy cellular function and ultimately healthy aging and support that similar to like why someone would take a multivitamin or eat a healthy diet. It's to ensure you get healthy light. So I'm excited about in the next like two to five years, even beyond that is proving those use cases out in clinical studies and actually showing, hey, this is a viable option for you to use. And like, hopefully people can, that message can get out and we can prove that. So people, you know, stop getting and stop having to to pour their money in pharmaceutical drugs because that stuff is not treating the source of the issue for most cases. Yeah. If I needed an antibiotic for something and it was like life or death, yeah, I would do that. But for a lot of cases, if somebody has a sore throat, they don't need necessarily need to go to the doctor and get an antibiotic. You know, give your body the tools, give it, give, you know, so you can, it can take care of itself. And so, you know, that's just what we've come to as a society where it's very reactionary and not proactive. And that's where I think red light falls into it. It can be a very proactive approach to just help ensure healthy aging and just health and wellness. That's ultimately where I think it is. Is there going to be use cases for it? Absolutely for like acute issues or chronic issues? Yes. And that's going to have to be proven out. But ultimately, like, if I was to say, how do I want people to interpret red and near and red light? Is it something to use every day? Like you would take a vitamin? Yeah. That's awesome. And I think this is why we brought you on on the show, right? It's it's the talk about novel approaches. And you know, you're not one to say, oh, this is 100%. This is this, you know, where it's yeah, it works. We have the anecdote. We have good research to back it up. Now let's take that even further. And so we're all about that on this show, right? Is we're not we're we're looking for how do we improve health care as it is right now? How do we take that next step? How do we bring health and wellness to the public? That is so easily deceived, right? With social media, with big pharma, you're hearing one thing on one side, you're hearing another thing on the other side. And I think this is where Juve just does an awesome job in terms of educating the public and going about it in a safe way, which is which is awesome to see. Where do listeners find you? Where do they find Juve? Yeah, so you could find us on on social at Juve social, Instagram, Facebook, etc. And then our website juve.com J-O-O-V-V.com. And when you're there, I encourage you to look at two places, even though you're probably going to go look at the products first. Go go look at the learn page and the science page and and read about this stuff for yourself. Don't just take my word for it. You know, go read go go do what I did go go read about go see what actually the clinical data says. We have great articles on our website, you know, talking about skin health. You can you can click on the sources and go actually straight to the source and read it there. You can get lost on there honestly. And but I encourage you to do that because it just you know proves it out for for you know what I'm saying. And then also go to the our reviews page. The reviews page I love because it's it's it's just I know I like it's one thing to know that this that like the therapy and what we you know what we sell is backed by by data and it works. But it's another thing then to actually read how it's impacted people's lives. And that's just really cool. Like people saying like, man, I've struggled with this and I and I've started using this and like I feel great. You know what I mean? Or hey, I've struggled with sleep and this really worked well for me. I'm sleeping great. Or hey, I have this old injury, nagging injury. This helped it. And this is the best I've felt in years. Like that's amazing to hear that stuff. I mean, we've even gotten emails from customers sometimes of like this is a really weird one. But like my sense of smell has been gone for like four years. And now it's back after using this product. And it's like, wow, I mean, are they telling the truth? I don't know. But that's kind of an extreme case. But regardless, like the reviews are great because it's it's real real people just sharing their experience. And you know, and yes, a lot of that is anecdotal. But anecdotal is what leads us to want to do research, right? It's what it's tipping points that tells us and points us to, hey, all these people are experiencing this. Maybe we should go, you know, look at that, right? Because if you go back to the 1950s, people were probably saying, yeah, I think these cigarettes are doing something to my lungs. No, there's no day that supports that. It doesn't exist. You're crazy. Well, we can think a little bit different now, don't we? So, yeah, the reviews page is great. And so definitely check out those if you hit our site. Nailed it West. That is like the one thing I try to tell so many people, right, who are like, well, there's no data on this. So it can't. And you know, this is where we talk about turmeric. This where we talk about so many things is that you need the anecdote in order to test. And then once you get that clarification of processes and how things work, you fine tune it. And then yes, you have the data there and then you can make your decision. So thank you so much for bringing that up. I did forget to ask one thing. Where does the name Jew come from? So it's like if you say rejuvenate, it's kind of right in there, right? Jew. Rejuvenate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely right instead of A O V E. Reju. But and it was also a clever way to find a free, a free, a dot com that wasn't, wasn't claimed. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I want to say fancy. I could stand, you know, but there's those factors that come into play. That's nice. It's simple, but it hits. I like it. Um, but Wes, thank you so much for coming on. Um, I just want to acknowledge you, your knowledge, you delving into this topic that you want to know, right? And you kind of start as a skeptic, delve into it. You saw the research and we will link the show notes, we'll link Jew, um, into our show notes as well and all the research that that comes with red light therapy. So I just want to thank you for your flexibility. I know it was a little bit of struggle to get you on this podcast from from our end. So thank you so much. Um, I do have one last question for you. And that's how do we put the health back in healthcare? You know, I would say how do you do that and, um, this may be a little philosophical, but I think self discovery and what I mean by self discovery is you need to discover like how your body works and what's best for your body. Because just because what you see works for somebody else on on social media doesn't mean that's going to work for you. And, um, and also as we're even learning now, if anybody has heard of, um, you know, uh, the, let's the liver king as an example, right? Like not everything is as it seems. And so like self discovery, I think is huge because if you start to get in tune more with your body, you can understand what your body needs and actually listen to your body. Because it'll tell you and a good example of that is let's say, you know, um, like, uh, I'm sure like after an activity, your knees, your knee may hurt, right? Something like that. That's your body telling you something's wrong with our structure. It's like something's wrong. That's what it's giving you a signal. And so what do we do as a society? Take a Tylenol, take, like numb it, ignore it, versus addressing it. Because a lot of times if you trace that, so I've, I've actually learned some of this stuff working with certain experts in like, um, structure and different things of like, you know, a knee pain is probably not the knee. It's probably the hips stuff like that. Yeah. So, you know, that's my whole point of like, that's where I, that's how I think you bring that back to there is self discovery. And people need to like, almost start to empower themselves on knowing what I maybe need to do for, you know, for my body. And that extends to everything. Diet, morning routine, like what works for you? Because your moon, you know, your moon morning routine may not work for mine. We have different lives, different things going on. So that's kind of my answer there. Yeah. 100%. I mean, I think we too often put our health and well-being in the hand of others. And that being health care pharmaceuticals, rather than us taking control and just learning our own bodies, like you said, man, I think that can make the world of a difference. Um, so absolutely. Well, Wes, thank you so much for coming on again. I really appreciate this. And hopefully, hey, we'll, we'll bring you on again as the research comes out and we can have another another discussion about life therapy. That'd be amazing. I love it. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode or found it to be valuable, please be sure to send it to someone who may also gain value from it. And if you did find yourself enjoying it, please take a moment to leave a five-star rating. Your reviews help get the message out to more people and allows us to continue bringing more content like this to you. Lastly, please remember that everything in this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute the practice of medicine, nor should it be construed as medical advice. No physician-patient relationship is informed and anything discussed in this podcast does not represent the views of our employers. We recommend that you seek the guidance of your personal physician regarding any specific health-related issues. And until next time, thank you for listening.