71. Giving Physicians a Voice & ReThinking Health | Michelle Seguin, MD & Danielle Shelton, MD

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined. A podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in healthcare. Welcome back to another episode of Medicine Redefined. Today we have two awesome guests for you. The first one is Dr. Michelle Seguin. Dr. Seguin is a board certified family medicine physician, educator, gardener, and an advocate for a lifestyle driven approach to help that focuses on supporting the individual, family, and community. In fact, much of our advocacy and teaching are centered on the premise that food is medicine. We completed her residency at the Marquette Family Medicine residency program after obtaining her doctorate at Michigan State University. She currently holds faculty appointments in the department of Family Medicine and Michigan State University College of Human Medicine, as well as the medical college of Georgia at Augusta University. Throughout her career, she has been the recipient of numerous awards, many of which include excellence in teaching and exceptional leadership. Her counterpart, Dr. Danielle Shelton, is also a board certified family medicine physician and co-founder of Clean Your Plate RX. After graduating from residency, she quickly became disenchanted with the way medicine was practiced. And so, in 2017, she created a non-profit out of desperation for someone to address preventative care in a way that was accessible, engaging, thought-provoking, and innovative. For her medical training, Danielle attended the American University of the Caribbean and went on to complete her residency at Self-Regional Medical Center in South Carolina. Together, they have created a network for modern healthcare professionals committed to learning, growing, and connecting together to improve our healthcare system. So in this episode, we discuss a lot about that initiative. We also discuss their journeys and the inspiration for changing the current model of primary care, as well as what gave T to the Food and Medicine movement in their lives and communities. We talk about the intersection between food systems and health systems. We also discuss how to keep social determinants of health at the forefront of our mind during patient visits. We then shift gears to talking about the future of medicine and improving upon the current medical education paradigm. What I loved about this episode is that we got to touch on some of the health policy change that is necessary. Often on this show, we discuss the nuance and the change that can happen at the individual level, but Michelle and Danielle routinely do a phenomenal job channeling their energy into changing systems. I left pretty inspired for a couple of reasons, but one of them is because they're doing the real hard work. As you know, and you'll hear, it's quite rare that doctors don't believe in the message of healthy eating and movement, etc. But it feels like an uphill battle and often not worth the fight. Our guest today highlights several ways by which that might not be the case. So without further ado, please enjoy our discussion with Dr. Shelton and Dr. Seguin. Alright everyone, welcome back to another episode of Medicine Redefined. This is our first time that we're going to have a dynamic duo sit in with us and talk about lifestyle medicine and a lot of the cool things that they are up to. So we have Dr. Danielle Shelton and Michelle Seguin. Did I say that right? Got it. Awesome. So we're going to talk a lot about the two electives that you guys teach at a medical college. We're going to talk about entrepreneurship, there are things that you guys have both created and your partnership. So before we get started and delve into those things, why don't each of you introduce your journey and kind of where you started and that process and then where you guys are now? Hey, thank you so much for having us on. It's really a pleasure to be here tonight and I'll just kind of share a little bit about my journey into medicine. So I'm originally from Upper Michigan, so a pretty small kind of rural community. I'm a first generation college student, so really didn't have anyone in medicine that kind of could mentor me or kind of help me along this path. And I really just was always very interested in science and in service and helping others and just kind of gravitated towards medicine and health care. And I attended Michigan State's College of Human Medicine for Medical School and I was involved in the rural physician program. So at MSU, they have a specific rural tract for people that are interested in practicing in rural communities, particularly those interested in primary care. And so while in training and in medical school, I kind of liked everything and again, gravitated towards family medicine, really enjoyed the concept of being able to take care of individuals and families in a community and wanted to return home to my community in Upper Michigan to practice. And so after medical school, I stayed in Upper Michigan to complete my family medicine residency at a community-based residency program. It was an unopposed program and our hospital was like the primary referral center for the entire Upper Peninsula, so about 200,000 people, which really made it a great training location, particularly if you're interested in rural medicine. We had a broad scope, it wasn't called which resident, it was called the resident, as you were the only one on. And so it was really a wonderful opportunity, became very close with my colleagues and our faculty. And after residency, I joined a federally qualified health center at a small community in Upper Michigan where I went to college and met my husband and started building a practice very quickly. In our community, there were limited doctors, it's an underserved area. And so I just quickly became really immersed in medicine, but also just a lot of the limitations of primary care. I just saw so much chronic disease among my patients and I felt like I had limited tools to really help them lead healthy lives, seeing a patient every 10 to 15 minutes, filling prescriptions, renewing lab orders. And I really didn't have the time or the tools really to help people make lifestyle changes. I wanted to help reverse their chronic conditions, wanted to help prevent chronic disease. And so I started looking for additional opportunities to learn about lifestyle medicine, learn about food is medicine and nutrition, but also I think it was important that I learned a lot about the social determinants of health working in this community and through the stories and the lives of my patients. It wasn't just that I felt like I wasn't equipped to help them make those healthy changes, but I felt like there were so many barriers to people making healthy changes. They were having to make choices between paying their heating bill in the winter and buying healthy food or getting a prescription filled. And so really thinking about the social determinants of health became a passion of mine as well. And so shortly into attending life, I started looking for lifestyle medicine conferences and food is medicine conferences, culinary medicine. And I came across a conference called Farms Food and Health. And it was really a powerful experience for me because I got to see the intersection between food systems and health systems. I was introduced to innovative programs like produce prescription programs, which helped kind of, you know, bridge food and health help to address food access and food insecurity by giving patients vouchers to purchase healthy food at farmers markets. And so I brought that back to my practice and was able to implement a produce prescription program pilot with 30 patients in my practice. I was able to get some grant funding. And along the way, I met Danielle and we connected through social media and we can talk more about that, but we met online like a lot of millennials do on Instagram. Partly because I was just really searching for other doctors that were doing this kind of work, you know, I felt isolated where I was and I really was looking for community. And so I guess I'll stop there and kind of throw it over to Danielle and let her share a bit about her journey as well. Yeah, so I had kind of a unusual journey into medicine too. You know, I always wanted to do it when I was a kid and I thought, you know, I loved like the Discovery Channel and National Geographic and just always found, you know, the human body really interesting. And then I was like, it takes how long to be a doctor? Yeah, I think I'll pass. So, you know, going through college, you know, I took pre-med requisites, pre-med pre-requisites and, you know, kind of still thought about it. My parents are my dad's Japanese, so he was always like, you know, do something in the stem. Like, that's it. I will not pay for college if you're doing something else. So I just kind of always loaded up on those, but I did, you know, I did acting classes, a lot of drama. I was a psych major, so it was kind of a little all over the place as far as that was concerned. And then kind of last minute in college, I decided that I did want to go to medical school. And I ended actually going to a Caribbean medical school, I went to AAC, and I loved it. Actually, I completely loved, I spent my third year in England learning medicine in a whole different kind of world and realm, and it was very different because I was taught by attendings. Like, we had like one-on-one, like, there was, their residency programs are very different and how they kind of train their doctors. Medical school starts right out of high school, essentially, and then they become registrars after you graduate, and that takes forever and you only become an attending if there's like an open spot. So I worked lots with one-on-one with attendings that a great passion for teaching, they're not rushed. You know, clinics would take like four hours and people just kind of did it. It was like totally non-American medicine, but I got to learn a lot, and it was really cool. And then kind of after that went to residency in a small, unopposed program in Greenwood, South Carolina. Same experience as Michelle, lots of inpatient medicine, not so much outpatient medicine, which I think is a lot of family medicine programs these days, even though most of us do end up going into heavily outpatient. And then I moved to southern Georgia, like right next to the Florida, Georgia line, another rural town, and that's kind of when everything changed because you know, you have this like moment after residency where you take like this deep breath and you're like, oh my gosh, I can sleep, I can exercise, I can eat like real food again. What are hobbies? So there's just this moment where it's like, okay, like what does the rest of my life look like now that, you know, my eyes are, you know, wide awake. And I realized that modern medicine was just like this big disappointment. You know, you spend so much time learning and being focused on that, that you don't realize that it's, it's very consumer driven, right? Medicine is very like, see this amount of people in this amount of time order this amount of tests and meet your quota. And it's like, nobody cares about anything else besides that in corporate medicine. And it was just like, you know, people came in with their first heart attack, newly diagnosed, you know, diabetes, you know, hypertension. It's like the pillars of all that change is lifestyle medicine, right? Lifestyle changes are supposed to, you know, tell them what to do. And it's like, we didn't learn any of that, you know, they're like, how many cups of vegetables I've all had to find out? But how much, what kind of exercise is the best? I don't know. You know, and I saw that my colleagues were just watching Dr. Oz or Oprah or the myriad of different health experts out there in quotation marks and giving them that kind of advice, right? Which was not really helpful because how many people have done diets or done all these things and then you just fail and you give up and it sounds sustainable. So my father is, was a, well, he's retired now, but he was a restaurant tour in New York. So I always had this idea that like, good food tastes good and nobody wants to eat steam broccoli for the rest of their life. That's just like a depressing, depressing idea, depressing everything. You know, and food is, you know, for me, it was always, you know, my culture was always family, it was always community, it was experience, right? And if you kind of deduce that to just, you know, macros and microbes and how many grams of fat and what the salt content of this is and it's, it takes all the joy out of, out of that experience. And that's like not fair to do to ourselves, it's not, it's really not fair to do or to do our patients. So that's kind of when I delved into culinary medicine and I started a nonprofit about a year after, year to after I graduated. Cause I looked for places to send people and like, that didn't exist, right? There's like no really great culinary programs that you can send your patients to outside of, you know, to lane or Harvard has some too, but that doesn't really exist in small towns, doesn't really exist in, you know, most of America. So that was kind of the genesis of that. And then I was looking for other doctors and Michelle touched on that and she messaged me on Instagram and I was like, you know what you're doing? Yeah, let's talk. And she had run a successful, that's prescription vegetable program and that was kind of the genesis of our, of our friendship was that. No, I love that, right? So quite diverse backgrounds, but it's interesting how our paths converge, right? I mean, you guys share your story about how you met and actually, I should remind you very similar to how we both started this project and really our relationship and, you know, with you guys has something some really great stuff and I'm going to come back to this concept of social determinants of health, explain a little bit more and how it affects our practice and really your practice today, Michelle. But you also both touched on this concept of the business of medicine drives a practice of medicine, right? And this is something that we've talked about time and time again, and I think a lot of the folks that we talked to who've been on here I guess before, they've had that struggle, right? They've had that insight at some point and they've changed course. Some curious, if I could start with you, Michelle, is what's your practice like today, right? Are you still, you know, seeing patients every 20, 30 minutes? Like is it primarily more like a cash base? Like if you could define that a little bit and then Daniel right afterwards, I'd be interested in yours as well. Yeah, thank you. That's a great question. And I actually, my course changed after five years in primary care. And so as I mentioned, you know, isn't a fairly qualified health center running through your patients very quickly. And you know, the protest prescription program really opened my eyes to the work that can be done outside the four walls of our clinic. And as part of this program, you know, not only did the patients get vouchers to, you know, purchase the food, but we incorporated education and recipes that changed every week. And I worked with our local university to do a small study with this because I thought like everything in medicine, you know, if we're going to see if this really has an impact, we should measure outcomes, you know, especially if we're looking to hopefully have programs like this covered by insurance and other payers in the future. And so with the study, you know, we looked at changes after 10 weeks in some biometric data. So looked at, you know, weight, BMI, blood pressure, fasting blood sugar. But I also did, you know, more like subjective, well, we did objective survey work. But you know, we were looking at changes pre and post in dietary habits, looking at changes in quality of life. And what we found was that in 10 weeks, there was a significant quality of life change improvement. And that really was like a light bulb moment for me. It's like if we can connect people with these resources, if we can connect them with where their food comes from, we have the opportunity to change people's lives. And that was when I realized I wanted to make a change. And so I, after five years, I left my primary care practice and I joined our local health foundation, which initially funded this pilot program in our community to take on a new position as the director of community health, where much of my focus for the last three and a half years has been at the social determinants level in my community. And at how can we connect food systems and health systems? And so now my day to day colleagues are city planners and dieticians and farmers and teachers. And you know, city councilman, it's been really interesting journey, something I never really expected when I went into medicine. I really wanted, you know, to kind of stay as a rural family doctor. I figured I'd be there for 30 years. And now I see that, you know, my, my scope has changed and, you know, in the last three and a half years, we're doing some really amazing things, you know, looking at particularly with food, you know, building community garden infrastructure to give people the opportunity to grow their own food, expanding farm to school programming in our school system so that we can not only incorporate nutrition and gardening education in the classrooms, but now we're getting to procure local food that's going into our cafeterias. So we're changing the food environment and the learning environments in our schools. And so I guess those are just a few examples, but my path definitely changed as a result of that experience early in my career. Yeah, I'm still doing corporate medicine and working on a bunch of other things, but I think that what really got me was the burnout statistics that I read while looking into life's down medicine pretty early. It was like 300 to 400 doctors commit suicide every year. We have the highest rate of burnout of any profession and that's controlling for income and education level. So that was like, it was like a moment for me, it was like, what can I do to prevent myself from burning out? And I think, you know, one of the things that I discovered was advocacy and I think, you know, speaking for others and myself, you know, on a bigger and more national scale has really helped, you know, I've put together some physician conferences because I, you know, we have this, I have this passion for other physicians. And the idea is just that, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot lacking in cross communication, cross collaboration, right, we're all kind of in our silos doing our thing. And there's so much to be gained from, from just talking, you know, just, and I think Michelle, in our relationship was, was the thing that I realized it was like, oh my gosh, if we just chatted and shared resources and were able to, you know, just kind of come together, their medicine would be so different. And that was kind of where we think came from and clean your plate and it's just this idea that, you know, corporate medicine doesn't always have to look like this. And there's things that we can do, you know, to change that. And that's like the driving force for my practice every day is that, you know, this is a status quo right now, but it doesn't always have to be. And that there's the future of medicine is bright with people like yourselves and, you know, Michelle and I kind of pushing, pushing that forward. Yeah, I think, you know, hearing both of you talk about your experiences and kind of how you are trying to implement change and the vision, it reminds me of just how the doctor is that middle person, right? Like we're trying to bridge the gap between the consumers, the patients with the government, with the systems, right? And so you kind of need this top bottom approach, right, Michelle, which is what you're talking about, talking to city councilmen, talking to actual city planners and the government and trying to enforce change, right, from the top bottom. But at the same time, we know that public trust, the government's like at an all time low, right? So how do we as doctors also implement lifestyle intervention to the patients in order to already get them started or a little bit of a head start? So that now when you have change on both ends, we're really that, you know, person in the middle. And sometimes there's a sentiment out there that, oh, it's not the doctor's responsibility to really focus on lifestyle, you know, that's what the dietitians are for, the nutritionists, you know, the physical therapists. And we're really there just for the acute, acute changes, right? That happened almost like in the, in the ER. But how do you guys think about this issue, right? Like, is there a step-by-step approach that you guys have? And I know I guess we're getting a little bit into the entrepreneurship of it. But do you guys have like a systematic plan in hand, or is it kind of like, hey, wherever I can make these changes, I'm going to take? Yeah. So I think, I mean, I'll speak for myself and I'm excited to see how Daniel will answer this. I think for me, it really, it's very personalized and I think it depends really on the individual, you know, physician, as well as, you know, their community that they live in. And so I think, you know, one thing that we talk to our students about in the electives at the Medical College of Georgia is that, you know, as a physician in this role, we have the opportunity to make change at any one of those levels. And it doesn't have to be all of them at the same time. And that, you know, there is a lot of, a lot of power that comes with this position and that we have the opportunity, you know, to share our voice and our expertise, you know, in the, in the exam room with our patients, but also out in our communities. And so I would say, you know, it really is, it's individualized, but I'll throw it over to Danielle and see what she says. So I agree, and I also think to go to your question, I think medicine is too styloid. Like, I think there's a role for, you know, for knowing where your, your expertise kind of ends, right? And asking for help, I think there's, there could be a lot more humility in medicine, in physicians and pretty much everyone, you know, and saying, hey, let's punt it to the dietician at this point, or, you know, let's consult whoever. But there's, you know, there's, there's so many, there's such good research out there that, you know, when doctors know lifestyle medicine, interventions and how to actually apply them, and when we, we ourselves are healthy, that makes our patients healthier. So if we are actually living by these rules and know, you know, how many cuts of vegetables to eat, you know, how to cook healthy meals, it makes it so much better. Much easier to give that advice to other people, right? Because if you're, you're not just talking about something theoretical anymore, you're talking about, hey, you know, when I'm really busy, I've worked 90 hour weeks, this is how I get in some vegetables, this is the exercise routines that I do, it becomes less cerebral and becomes more practical. And I think, you know, a lot of medicine is academic, and I've been to conferences where it's all academic, right? All lifestyle medicine is like, super academic, and it's like, you buy all this stuff. You talk way up here, and it's like, that's great, you know, and I think we need that. And that drives research, but it doesn't do much for the, for the doctor in those rural communities, those physicians who are not, you know, in those large academic centers. It's like, no, you really need to figure out what the practical approach is to this and how, and how they can implement it in their clinic on a day-to-day basis, when they're rushed, when they're, their resource limited, right? When their patients have low resources, like, what does this actually look like? And then I think, you know, the communication is so key. Like that's the one thing I learned, you know, that my biggest advocates for, for lifestyle medicine in my patients, in my community, were not other physicians. It was the dietician, it was the diabetic educator, it was the physical therapist, it was nurses, you know, it was all these other fractions of, or factions of medicine that I'd never really spent much time in, right? Like in residency, dieticians order TPM, that's literally what I knew about them. And, and, and they were just such big advocates, and, you know, they got programs that I want to done, they push them through, because they, they, they just knew how to do it. So, I think that, you know, in medicine, if we want to make change, we've got to link arms with the people around us, you know, and, and have humility and say, hey, I don't know that, or I want to learn that, or what's the answer to that? And it's, you know, you don't know everything, nobody knows everything, and there's, there's no shame in that. I think a lot of times we want to know everything, because you know, you get pimped by attendings, and it's like, they'll pimple until you don't know, and then it's like they make, you know, and then it's a big deal, and you feel embarrassed, and it's like, no, like life is full of questions, and the biggest thing you can do is just keep asking them, and keep learning, you know, we're all light, we're all nerds, you know, in our core, you know, we all, we're all nerdy. So that's how I would, I would, I would say that, and then, and then lastly, like, you know, Michelle and I always emphasize this a lot too, is just, I can't, we can't emphasize not how healthy doctors just equal healthy patients, like that's the end of the story. If we're burned out, if we're exhausted, if, you know, our empathy goes down, you know, our medical decision-making is poor, you know, all that stuff just leads to bad outcomes for patients, so we have to take care of ourselves. Yeah, there's a lot in there, and what I really like is we all know that theory and knowledge is great, but the application is what really matters, right? That's what you're talking about here, and you know, I keep referencing these surveys, and really anybody can Google, and time and time again, when you ask people what the barriers are of why they're not quote unquote eating healthy, whatever that means, right? We would even have to define that, and rarely is it that they don't know that vegetables are good for you, right? I mean, I shouldn't say everybody, I mean, some people truly don't know that we surprise to find out, but most people know that, right? And so just giving that generic advice, hey, you got to eat healthy, lose weight, right? That's not helpful, right? The devil's in the details, kind of what you touched on, and one of the things, of course, is, as you mentioned time and time again, and so I want to ask you now, is if you could define Michelle what the term social determinants of health even means, right? This is important. There might be a lot of people in the healthcare industry, and certainly those who don't know what that means, and it's important now, we talked a little bit about the business of medicine. This is one of the key criteria for reimbursement, and so if medical schools aren't teaching it, it's only a matter of time that's going to be in the curriculum. So, you know, we know we talked about how socioeconomic status is a strong predictor for health. You've touched on that, and you've touched on that at the systemic level, and that's important. And so if you could define what that means, and I'm also curious at the individual level, right, how are you having those discussions about, quote unquote, eating healthy and implementing that change that Daniel was talking about? Great. So I guess like fundamentally with social determinants of health, like at its core, it's really all of the things where we live, where we work, where we play, where we eat, that influence our health outside of our individual health behaviors and outside of our genetics. And so, you know, examples of that are our socioeconomic status, food access or food security, safe housing, employment, education, you know, all of these different aspects of our environments and of our society that have an influence on our health and our health outcomes. And so, you know, when I think about the social determinants of health, I feel like, you know, we should be evaluating those aspects of our patient's lives in addition to their past medical history, you know, in addition to their social history. You know, we really need to be screening for these things. And so, but also if you're going to screen for them, we would need to have, there needs to be systems in place within your practice to respond to them if there is a positive screen. And so, an example of that would be screening for food insecurity. And so, we teach medical students in our elective to how to use a validated tool called the Hunger Vital Sign, which was developed by the American Academy of Pediatrics to screen for food insecurity. It's a two-step question that you can embed into your EMR and ask as part of your intake or as part of a well-child visit. And if that screen comes back positive, you know, then there needs to be systems in place within your clinic to connect that individual, that patient with the resources in the community. You know, we know from other universal screening, like universal screening for depression, but we can do more harm than good if we screen without having responses in place for that. So in addition to, you know, discussing lifestyle changes and lifestyle medicine with patients, you know, I, we can talk about nutrition and food for as an example, you know, in addition to asking questions about what their general dietary intake, you know, what are the foods they actually are eating? I think to be more, to come from a place of awareness and from the lens of social determinants of health, we need to ask questions about whether that individual has, you know, the resources within their home to actually cook that food. So, you know, if we're going to ask someone to make changes and incorporate more whole foods into their, into their diet, you know, that requires more prep, for example, or more actual home cooking in a kitchen. You know, we need to be asking, you know, do you have, you know, a functioning stove? Do you have, you know, do you have knife and a cutting board to be able to cook, you know, to prep those vegetables? And I think, you know, those, those types of practical questions are so important. For example, would be for physical activity and movement, you know, not only do we need to ask about, you know, how many minutes of activity are they getting a week, but, you know, in what types of activity, but do they have a safe place in which they can do that? You know, do they have access to a park nearby? Do they, can they afford a gym, you know, do they have equipment at home that they could use? And that is coming from a lens of the social determinants of health, as we look at lifestyle medicine. Yeah. It's not, I'm not sure what pneumonic you guys are, but it's not part of the OPP QRST that I learned, right, or all charts or whatever it is, part of the history taking process. And so, you know, you're talking about teaching the next generation, right, and putting this in their repertoire of history taking. So, you know, I'd love for now kind of us to talk about the electives that you guys are teaching, and you brought up food as medicine and that concept and depending on what side of the spectrum you're on, it can be a very charged topic. And so, talk a little bit about the medical school curricula, the electives, and how that's going. So, we started food as medicine, and it's actually a completely virtual elective. It has podcasts and videos and articles, like research articles, and then there's a few projects that the students do through it. And our main goal was really to kind of fill that gap of nutrition and exercise knowledge and give them at least a foundational foundation for which to kind of build on. And also, we'd like to use those four weeks because in medical school, there's very little time spent on your own health. So, we encourage some healthy behaviors and discussion about what it means to have those healthy behaviors. So, you know, there's mindfulness exercises in there, body scans, you know, getting enough water, limiting your caffeine, talk about exercise with them, so it's really them kind of going through the motions of making these lifestyle changes as well. And we've gotten really good feedback about that because I don't think in med school you really have much time to kind of take a breather and think about, okay, am I healthy? Are the choices I'm making good for my health? So I think that has been one of the big pluses of the curriculum. And then Michelle mentioned, part of that is we have them do their social determinants of health. And it's amazing how, unless you think to ask those questions and think about wellness from a lens of, you know, the social determinants of health because you kind of think about, you know, a lot of people take a gym membership for granted, take a safe place to walk for granted, access to food for granted, right? Like those are just like things that we assume that most people have. And your patient population will continuously surprise you on that, you know, people you think are, you know, it's kind of like everybody is leading a hard battle, right? Like you never know the inner workings of your colleagues or, you know, your patients, it's always people put on a good face. And they will kind of raise, you know, rise to your expectations. So if you just assume all these things are going well, nobody wants to tell you, you know, they're barely hanging on kind of like the depression screen, right? Most people are like, we're good, everything's good, we're fine. So it's really important to kind of look, look at that through that, do that lens. And then the one of the fun things that we do is we have this whole one of our registered dietitians talks a lot about like food myths because I think we all come in with this billion dollar marketing campaign behind us, right? Like words like natural, you know, don GMO, organic, you know, fresh produce first frozen, first canned, you know, and we have these assumptions about what is good food and what isn't good food, and you know, that can be really alienating for patients because if you can only afford canned vegetables, then nobody wants to poison their family with GMOs, right? Like that's terrifying. Like nobody wants that, you know, so you kind of just come in with this lens of like what is healthy and what isn't healthy. And if it's wrong, and a lot of times it's wrong, it's a huge detriment to your patients. So that, I think, so I think that's the lens of which we try to, we come at the food as medicine, do anything to add, Michelle? Sure, yeah, I think that pretty well covers it. I guess the other aspect of this, you know, is the food access assignment that the students do as well, so they do look up, they select a county in Georgia and then they're able to research a food access program within that community. And so they learn about it and then they create like a flyer that could be used with patients as a patient education tool. But it's not so much the flyer that really has a lasting impact on the students, it's them going through the process. Many of them call the, you know, the organizations themselves, you know, going through the referral process as a client would, and they realize how limited resources are, you know, and how they vary across the state and the barriers that people face to access community resources. Yeah, it's so awesome to hear because I think the average stat, I think in a medical school, you get about 23 hours in the entire, you know, first two years to kind of learn about like food, right, nutrition, wellness, even go into an osteopathic medical school, right? I mean, I think I may have gotten six to 10 hours on quote unquote holistic medicine, you know, minus just the OMM portion. So it is really funny how I think a lot of medicine is transitioning towards more of the alopathic side, right? And we've kind of lost those osteopathic roots or even just understand the natural pathic, you know, if I, if I could use that word. So it's really cool to see you guys bringing back this food is medicine concept, right? To teaching it to students. Now, are they in their preclinical years? Are they third or fourth year students? They're fourth year students. Fourth year students. Okay. And then what are kind of the next steps that you tell them to look at, you know, so they're thinking about internally or they're probably applying, are there any kind of next steps that you guide them to? Is it like ACLM or other types of programs? We usually do guide them towards, you know, the, so residency is kind of like, you, I mean, everybody remembers fourth year, right? It's like you have tunnel vision, you were just like, residency, like, that is like your, your goal. But the, so, I mean, we do tell them other resources that are out there, you know, we make ourselves available. And hopefully it's just this, like, pearl, right, this, like, little, you know, whisper in your ear that's, that's there at the end of, you know, because I mean, residency is just sucks, you know, it's just like so hard. And you're so tired and you barely have time to like, do anything else besides just residency. So I, I think, I mean, if you would have asked, I mean, I was learning Tylenol doses, you know, so I don't know how much lifestyle medicine education I was, you know, effectively giving, you know, or so, but, but I, I think that maybe if I had known more, it probably would have become more natural to you. But I think, I think our goal is just to have them one take care of themselves. And then two is to have some kind of basis from which to speak to, you know, hypertension diabetes and, and just know, and also know what they don't know. And, you know, I really think that that is so dangerous in medicine. I can't tell you how many doctors just tell patients just like, these crazy things that it's like, where did you learn that? You know, and we treat everything like a hard science, except nutrition. And it's somehow that's just like, you know, whatever, you know, glamour magazine prints that you read online is like good to go. You know, so hopefully we've, we've given them a good basis to know where to find good resources and ask good questions. And then also to ask their, their dietitians and, and kind of treat, treat that more as a, as a communal goal and exercise. Yeah. I love that. It's kind of like a three-pronged approach in the way I see it, right? One, you're trying to make the individual healthy themselves to knowing what the facts are, right? In order to teach. And then three, knowing what to ask in order to implement those changes, right? And we kind of do then rehab too, right? If somebody has a stroke, a lot of times we have to say, okay, you can do that. You can't just go do physical therapy, it's all how many stories do you live in, right? Do you have handrails? So, asking those questions because they're truly important, right? So, super cool stuff. I want to transition into the other elective that you guys also teach. And I think this is going to be fascinating to learn about, because there's this huge move it now, I think, you know, with pre-med students, social media, the advent of social media, which is called a lot of people to try to do side hustles and learn how to get into tech and, you know, medicine as a whole just, you know, outside of it, just being siloed like you were talking about. So, take us through this entrepreneurship innovation course that you guys teach. Yeah, sure. So, this is a new elective that we developed over the past, you know, six months. And it was actually a student driven. So as you mentioned, like the up and coming students and learners are just yearning for this kind of information. And we actually had one of, we had a third year medical student with us in this past December onsite when we were hosting a live stream, lifestyle medicine conference at a studio in Brunswick where Danielle lives. And I'll probably have her chime in after I'm done here to share more about that experience. But the student was onsite in the studio while we were, you know, live streaming this conference. So we had a kitchen set up with a chef who is Danielle's husband, as well as a dietician, you know, doing culinary medicine demo videos. And she was just in awe. She's like, you are doctors and you are producing content like this and producing conferences. Like in a studio, this is amazing. And this is the kind of stuff that like we need to be learning about as, you know, physicians that are especially those interested in entrepreneurship and innovation. So it was really the feedback from the students that helped us develop the course. And so similarly to the food is medicine course, we produce all of our own content. So we have a series of podcasts where we've invited on various experts. We have physicians whom I would consider innovators and disruptors in industry, people that are, you know, out there at the frontiers pushing the envelopes, you know, doing startups, you know, we have a nurse duo who have created shapes, seizure pads and they walked through the entire process from, you know, prototyping to patenting to their first sale and what that has looked like, which was really exciting. But then we also bring in, you know, so in addition to the disruptors and innovators, we also have a week focused on medical writing and publishing. So for those of us who are interested in being, you know, medical correspondence with news or want to be contributors to, you know, different press on health topics. You know, how can you get involved in those types of activities? What's it like to work with the publisher? Things like that. And so that's just a little bit of it. And I think I'm going to throw it over to Danielle and let her expand because she's really been the brainchild for this one. So I think, picking back off of Michelle, I think as physicians, we've lost our voice. We don't talk about issues that we are experts on. We have kind of given that over to pundits, over to administrators, over to politicians, right? They're all making these big decisions that impact us, that we have to deal with the ramifications of, and we don't have a voice, and nobody listens. And I think that, you know, that's one reason that Michelle and I, you know, develop to rethink health is we want a voice. We want physicians to have a voice again. We think that, you know, the course of medicine will be better if we have a platform, if we speak up, if we collaborate, you know, and it's scary to be a disruptor. It's scary to be an entrepreneur. You know, there's no handbook for us. You know, like there's, you know, there's tech, there's so many other, there's, I don't know, there's so many handbooks for other industries, right? It's like, as a physician, you're supposed to go to a medical school, you're supposed to go to residency and you're supposed to become an attending, and that's it, right? And there's, there's some of us who are doing crazy, cool things and, and thinking outside of that traditional box and moving past that, but we're not talking about it. You know, we're not telling other people. So that was kind of, you know, and, and having, we had two medical students, when one presented at the conference, because, you know, one of the things that that Michelle and I do is we love medical students. They are, they are just so passionate and, so, they're out of the box thinkers and they want a different world. They just, they're not satisfied with the status quo. And they are going to be the real movers and shakers of medicine. They just, they inspire us on a daily basis. So, you know, having those two medical students there, while we were live streaming a conference we had a studio and, you know, physical therapists were doing movement demos and we had some, she teaches like the pathophysiology of, of yoga, right, so all the scientific stuff about what your brain does on yoga. And then she, let everybody through like mindfulness and breath work and, to see how excited the medical students were about that and just their, you know, the idea that medicine is more than just your clinic and it has like this huge potential and we have this huge potential. So, so that was, that was like the genesis of, of that innovation and entrepreneurship and we have spoken to, I mean, people who do graphic medicine, I didn't even know that was a thing until recently, you know, some really, you know, New York Times best seller selling authors, like it's been just so awesome. The responses that we have received, you know, just randomly sending them a DM on Instagram or an email and everybody is so excited to share their story and to talk to other people and, you know, I think that was probably the most surprising thing is how easy it is to get physicians and health, other healthcare professionals because they've talked to nurses and just to tell their story and say, hey, this is how you do this. You know, I think in the tech industry, we're so used to people being so like, oh, this is a secret and you can't know this and what's this, you know, you might steal my idea, but that is, that is not us at this moment in time. We are just so excited about telling everybody how to do things better because I think we're all just tired. You know, I think COVID kind of pushed us all to this breaking point, which I think we needed that kick, right? I think it's, I think it's a good thing and I think it'll be a good thing in the long run. So but that's a genesis of it and it's been, it's been such a joy to talk to so many doctors and so many healthcare professionals about the ways that they are just expanding and thinking about medicine so differently. You know, as I hear you both kind of explain the concept behind these things, I can't help but be giddy about the opportunities that these students have and I find myself kind of wishing that I was going back to medical school and had this opportunity, but then I have to remind myself, no, no, I'm going to place them done. I don't need to do it all over again. But I find that interesting, right? So the challenges who brought up the fact at the outside of this conversation about how the systems really not designed to be able to practice the way that most physicians want that we know the drivers for change, but we just don't have the time. This is not set up for it. Your guys are obviously doing a lot of great things. And so everything that we have to do is got to be outside your clinic hours, right? It's just tagging on more. I mean, we're here. All of us are serving a purpose here, but you know, we're doing it on late night on the East Coast time at least. And so much of what you guys do is outside of your normal doctor stuff, right? And in order to redefine or rethink, if you will, of how we are going to practice medicine, it does take some time. And so in that time, we have to learn these skills to be able to be a bit of a market on social media, to be able to do the entrepreneurship thing, the advocacy thing that you're talking about. And so I love the two-pronged person that you guys talked about, right? So at the granular level, just rethinking some of those biases that people are coming in with, hey, GMOs are going to kill you or these food preserves are going to kill you of like, let's just pause. Maybe not so much, right? But so much of the messaging around what we put in our bodies and different foods today, especially with social media is based on these fear-based approach. And so just getting people to really take a step back and say, hey, listen, this isn't the NLB all in. There's a bigger picture that you got to look at. I think that's strong. And then also being able to give them the voice, Daniel, as you said, to be able to communicate that message clearly, because that's really what it's all about, right? I mean, this is something that, Darshan, I talk about offline all the time and how can we communicate the message more clearly, right? More succinct and make it better. And so on that note, I want to hear a little bit more about rethink health. We brought it up a couple of times. You guys have touched on different pieces of it. And so Michelle, if you wouldn't mind explaining really what was the genesis of this and what it means and how can people get involved? Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity. So as we've mentioned, we have developed two electives that the Medical College of Georgia. And in that process, we have created a virtual learning platform that houses that content. And so in addition to medical school electives, Danielle and I talked about how there's this need for connection and collaboration and community within healthcare. And why not take this platform and offer it to a broader audience outside of medical students? And so we have, as I mentioned, this virtual learning platform where we're really looking to create kind of a co-learning community for healthcare professionals where they can come on. It's not on social media, it's its own platform, it has an app, where you can engage with content, you can listen to lifestyle medicine-based podcasts, you can watch culinary medicine demo videos, you can listen to guided meditations, there is a discussion board forum section where you can engage with other healthcare professionals whom are community members to share those resources, to collaborate on your next project, to practice your next elevator pitch for the idea you're looking at. And also in the process as part of the paid membership, you have the option to opt in to earn CME credit through reflections that you would create in response to the content. And so we're looking to launch our membership for re-think health in October of this year. So we're very excited, it's coming up quickly. And we would love for your listeners to connect with us there. We're looking to build a really robust community where we can just continue to make changes in our own lives and in our communities. And so I think that's kind of an overview, I'll kick it back to Danielle to have her add on as well. Yeah, I would say that learning is fun. And from my remember, being a kid and watching National Geographic or Discovery Channel is that, you know, I could learn all about the digestive process in sharks, right? And they would just present it in this way that I could watch an entire hour on that, right? And I think that somehow in medicine, we've lost that. You know, learning is no. Yep, I'm nerdy. It's okay. You know, but we've lost that in medicine, right? It's like this chore all of a sudden. And to do CMEs is kind of like this really boring thing you have to do and you just do it to check a box. And it's like, no, you know, that's not how we're wired, that's not who we are. So I think, you know, we think health is definitely a co-learning community and it's supposed to be a lot of fun. You know, like medicine should be fun, learning this stuff should be fun. And you know, and I think that we learn differently than probably our predecessors. You know, we like podcasts, we like different media apps and different, you know, different ways of learning than they did. And medicine's not so much an academia, right, anymore. I think that's true of like everything that, you know, we can teach each other things. I learned so much from Michelle that I didn't, you know, I couldn't find in a textbook. I couldn't find anywhere else just because she had done it. And, you know, the barrier for entry for us to do things is so high, right? You've got to figure out what happened. What is an LLC, what's an S-Corp, you know, all these other things. And so if we can just like lower that barrier of entry for physicians, for healthcare professionals, if we can just make it easier to create things, you know, that's the idea is just to make it easier, is to give you resources to figure out how to do this stuff on your own and then to connect you to people who've done it before to ask questions, you know, and, and, you know, we talked to attorneys for you and we, you know, we had an interview with the, just to kick it back to the INE elective, just, you know, we walked through the entire process for creating a business and what the tax ramifications are. I mean, some of that stuff is boring, but if you want to actually do this stuff, you've got to do that stuff, you know. So it's just about creating this community where physicians have a real world impact and it's, you know, it is about late nights and stuff, but if you can take off a couple of those notches, then it makes it a little bit easier for people to do this and for all of us to have a bigger platform and a louder voice. Well, what I will say is that I can certainly agree with the statement that you made that learning is fun. Great. It's got to be something that, you know, we enjoy learning and I think much of what we talked about today definitely fits in that bucket for me. And I'm glad you brought up CME, you know, in preparation for this, I came across something called the Clean Your Plate CME Adventure. And so Daniel, would you care to talk a little bit about who that's for and, and when that is, because I believe it's coming up this fall and, you know, what can attendees expect to get out of it if they choose to attend? And they should. Yes. So actually, we are going to push that back. So COVID struck again in California. Yes. So it's actually going to be in 2023. We're still working on the date. We'll have it by the end of this, this month. But so learning should be fun. And that's kind of how we approach our conferences. You know, what does it mean to not just sit there and learn how to do breath work, but what does it mean to engage in that? There's, you know, really good research on nature therapy and how it's great for anxiety, depression, blood pressure. You know, so what does that look like to go on a nature walk and learn why you're doing it and have a lecture there? And, you know, one of the things that's been really cool is this would be our third conference, a fourth conference, and that everybody who's come has brought like two or three friends. And it's just this like, you know, people go out to lunch together. Like I've never been to a CME where people actually like connect and hang out and become friends. And it's just, it's the idea that learning is fun and it should be fun and we should enjoy it and we should like going to CMEs. And, you know, I've always been to ones where you just like you check in, you listen, and then you leave. And the goal of this is not that. And then the other part of that is, you know, we offer, we offer scholarships because, you know, not every physician makes a ton of money. And I don't, you know, we believe that, you know, education and wellness is for everyone, regardless of financial resources. And then the third part of that is we also have fundraising dinners for certain physicians that are local to the conference in San Diego. So, you know, doing community work is hard, getting a vegetable prescription program off the ground is hard. Wouldn't it be cool if we supported each other in those endeavors? Wouldn't it change the game? So, it's just this idea that learning is fun. We can support one another and, you know, and get CME credit on in the meantime. I love the vegetable prescription. I think about, there's a physician on the ready-said podcast a long time ago. I heard Dr. Nick DeNoebly, he's an orthopedic surgeon in the Philadelphia area. And I remember him telling one of the physical therapists he was talking to Kelly Starat, previous guest, that he often will, on a prescription pad, right, just like, you know, follow mobility water or do move more. And I love the concept of writing a prescription pad, eat five servings of vegetables three times a day, or that's a little too much, maybe. But, you know, five servings are vegetables daily for five days or something like that, or, you know, start there. And maybe something I'll start doing in my practice as a start. But on that note, you know, I do want to, we brought up this concept of food as medicine a couple of times, right? I think it's the basis of a lot of what we talked about. It's important because it's so intertwined in our lives, you know, every second, you know, we talk about how the, these pillars of health span that we always discuss, you know, exercise and excitedness molecules and sleep and that kind of stuff. And you can pull on some a little bit harder and they've shown to be more beneficial when it comes to health span. But food is the one that's every second. And so it can be the most challenging for people. And this concept of food is medicine can be very beneficial. We know that. We all know that. And patients know that some, some of them at least. But I think it can also be harmful, right? I think we've all had the patient and I've had family members who think that they don't need to take their medications for hypertension because they can take a beat reduce or an eight beats. And those are certainly good. And they have medicinal properties. They have therapeutic properties. We know that same thing with not taking their diabetes medication because they can do apple cider vinegar and something like that. So these just examples. And I'm sure you guys share that. And I've heard of people, physicians and, you know, with good intention to talk about how that can be a toxic and harmful message. Now, of course, nuance is everything. And we often say on this podcast that's context over content. But I'd love to get your take on on just that aspect of how that can be harmful and that could potentially backfire. And maybe if you could give some specific examples and how you can make that a little bit more clear for patients. Sure. Yeah. And I do agree. And I have seen, you know, others in health care and outside of health care, you know, have this discussion about, you know, what could the unintended effects of the food is medicine, message B with individual patients as well as just with, you know, the with general, the general population. And I agree that I think context really does matter and that when I'm working with patients, I really try to emphasize it's not an either or it's a yes and situation. And so I think that is where we really need to make that clear with the message in that, you know, food is medicine as well as, you know, the medications that people need for their chronic conditions as well. It does not have to be an either or situation. And I think that why I feel strongly that the food is medicine message is needed is that for so long within health care, there has been, you know, such little emphasis on nutrition and the importance of food in our diet or food in and how it impacts our health as evidenced by the fact that physicians only get about 23 hours of nutrition education over the course of our medical education. And I think that, you know, as physicians and with the health care community, you know, we really need to, you know, emphasize that, you know, nutrition and, you know, healthy whole foods really are the foundation to a healthy life. And but that does not mean that it's going to replace, you know, the modern medications that we have in need in individual circumstances. And so I'll kick it over to Danielle as well. Yeah, just real quick, though, I know we brought up that number. And I think what's important to note about the statistic that the dark brought up is that most of the nutrition education is really giving, you know, getting at the biochemistry level, right? Or the the pharmacokinetics of food and stuff and what we're not learning about are, you know, strategies like motivational interviewing and talking about the behavior in the day to day and much of the application that Danielle talked about a long time ago. So that's also an important thing. And that's this is one of the reasons why I was getting so excited about the electives that you guys are offering. Yeah, I think, you know, like you said, like there's nuance to all this, right? Like to say that food is not medicine is to ignore a plethora of research. I mean, the dash diet is equal to a blood pressure medicine, you know, if it followed correctly, like that sounds like, you know, pretty medicinal. And I think, you know, I think where we get lost is when we separate the micronutrients, right? So beetroot juice or we get into the weeds with the stuff that's like a little, maybe not so scientific, you know, but really trendy. So I think that that is where, you know, food is medicine can be misleading. And it's also, you know, it's not a hashtag, you know, like it is, but it's not in in the day to day practice. So, you know, I think I think we have too long ignored how important exercise is, how important your diet is, how important stress reduction is, how important, you know, good sleep is. And, you know, if we continue to ignore it, it's at our own detriment, it's at the detriment of our patients, right? It's at the, you know, the taxpayer dollar, right? Like you could, you could kind of go on down that road. You know, Michelle, I always talk about this because there's always people who get really upset about the food is medicine. You know, I don't know what's the tagline, but that phrase. And, you know, you kind of always have to check yourself and like, what does that mean because you don't want to do harm, right? You don't want to harm your patients out. You don't want to harm yourself, but I think if we think a food is not medicine, that's a more, that's a more dangerous road to, to kind of go down. Yeah, I think, I think it's nuanced in the end, right? Just like you said. So, I love how you ask the opposite, right? You put that knot in there. So, ultimately, I just did a recent episode called Progress No, right? It's our new project that we're kind of taking on polarizing topics and trying to break down the science in the gray area, right? And so, our first one was about meat and cancer. And so, you can say meat causes cancer. Well, no, not really. But then if you ask the opposite, meat does not cause cancer, no, not really, right? So, there's obviously this kind of gray area where you have to talk about, well, if you add this and this, then this is the outcome. Or if you take away this, this is another outcome, right? And I think it's tough in the world we live in, right? With social media. And so, I think, like you said, as much as we can give the context and constantly ask questions, not only just give answers, we're going to get to a better place where we can at least safely educate the people who really need it, right? I think for us, you know, we understand it, we get it, but we are now in those roles of being the teacher and really try to provide good education to the masses. So, I appreciate both your perspectives on that. I did want to ask a question kind of going back to entrepreneurship. And just because you guys are very much a dynamic duo, right? I think you guys complement each other very well. And it was interesting. I was just last week, I was listening to a podcast episode on the knowledge project and there was a serial entrepreneur Andrew Wilkinson. And he talks about finding the right CEO or the right business partner, right? And he asked these two questions whenever he asked to come to that. And he says, the first one is, can this person babysit my child? And the second question is, if I was stuck in a cabin on a cruise ship for three days with this person, like what I survived would I be okay talking to this person, right? And I think those are pretty comical, but also kind of true, right? I think about ultimately, I'm like, yeah, I think I think you do a good job taking my care of my kid and then I thought I was stuck on a cruise ship. I mean, I think we'd probably just work out, you know, with three days straight or something, but but thinking about how you guys collaborated, you guys meeting through social media, I know you guys were talking about learning from one another, what are those things that, you know, pre-med students, let's say should start thinking about, right? As they think about entrepreneurship, creating ideas, collaborating with other folks, what are those things, those pearls that you want to give them that they should really be thinking about? So, I would say is find somebody who you think is smarter than you in some way. And that's sometimes that's like a really hard, hard thing to do, right? Cause we're all a little insecure. But Michelle is like, she is like brilliant. Like I, she amazes me every day, like she thinks of things in such a scientific and logical way that just like, you know, I'm much more of like a dreamer. I'm like, oh, I should do this. And when this be amazing. And she is like, she is in the details. And I don't find that intimidating. I found it amazing. So I think that if you find somebody who you think is smarter than you, that is, you know, and not to be intimidated by it. Cause I think, you know, I've listened to other not successful entrepreneurs talk about it, you know, and they kind of self sabotage themselves. Because they work with people and they just become intimidated. And then they fire them or they leave, right? And it's because they want the spotlight or they want the limelight or they want the credit. And you have to be willing to give up that credit, right? You just, you know, it's, it's more about the vision and what you're creating and how that person can make it better. And, you know, and just eat some humble pie every day. How about you, Michelle? This question always makes me giggle a little bit because I think about conversations Danielle and I have had and I feel the same way about her and her vision. And it reminds me of in our residency program, we had two co-chiefs. And the most successful co-chiefs complimented one another. And so when I was going through, I was the details chief. And then we had the big picture idea chief alongside me. And I feel like that's who I've found in Danielle. She's a beautiful dreamer and has a big vision and a big heart for this. And she amazes me at the innovation that she brings to the work that we do to the connections that she makes with the people inside medicine and outside. And so I really think that, you know, it is important to have, you know, diversity in your team, diversity of thought, diversity of backgrounds, experience, but also to compliment one another. Because as we've said, you know, we are not experts in everything. And it's really exciting to see the synergy that you find in a team like that. It's really rewarding and inspiring. Yeah, that's also to hear, amazing to hear. And I think it is very evident, you know, as we talked about for the last hour, everything that you guys are doing, collaborating with and just both your thought processes are very interesting and awesome, just to hear and kind of bounce ideas off of. So what is next for you both? What is next for breathing health? Where is this all going in your mind? Take over the world. So, so launches, you know, I don't know. We've had a lot of people say no and just can't wait until we don't even have to ask them anymore. So that's exciting to think about. So we launched in October. I think the future of everything health is you guys is, you know, all our fellow physicians, the excitement of creating something for them, with them, by them. And just the idea that we can, we don't have to ask permission. And I think that's like the, you know, it's creating a nonprofit going back to that. You know, you always have to ask people to donate, to support this, to do that. And it's like, what if we didn't have to ask that? What if we didn't have to have administration say like, oh, this sounds good. You know, what if what if we were free from that as as physicians? What if we had a bigger platform? What if we had a collective voice? You know, what if we put the patients and ourselves back into that synergistic relationship? What would that look like? You know, there's so many cool things that we have talked about and dreamed about. And but I think that this platform and this community is the first step. And the idea too that that we want to learn from other physicians and we want their their voices to matter and and their ideas to be circulated like we think how does it starts with Michelle and I but it continues on the backs of other of other healthcare professionals and their dreams and what they want to do and how they see the world and how they want to impact it. So I think that, you know, that's that's how we see the future is that this is very much a community project and you know, if there's, you know, documentaries that people want to want to create if there's, you know, visual art, graphic medicine, books, whatever it is, you know, we want to be able to to lift that up and to give healthcare professionals the ability to create those things and get a little see on me. Have a year Michelle, where's this hand for you? What do you agree in? Take it over the world. Yeah, I agree with Danielle. I think that it's a really exciting to be at this point where we're ready to get it out into the world. So, you know, you can find us, you know, our website is rethinkinghealth.group. We do have a wait list there for our membership. So if anyone is listening and wants to check out, you know, our community, you can join the wait list. As we mentioned, membership will open in October. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, and we'll be making sure to put all your socials, the websites and everything into our show notes. So for those listening, there's, there's going to be a good amount. So it's easy access. Go to our show notes. You'll be able to find it there. Last question, Michelle, we'll start with you. This is going to be a really interesting question just because I think we really talked about this for the entire episode. So love to see kind of what you pinpoint here. But how do we add the health back in healthcare? That's such a great question. And I guess I'm going to take it from, you know, the lens and where I'm at in my career right now. And I feel like we need to bring community into healthcare. And so whether it be community of our colleagues, but also the communities that we live in and how we can better connect them to our current healthcare infrastructure. So that's my answer. Love it. How about you, Daniel? How do we add the health back in healthcare? Yeah. So I, so I think that it really starts with just thinking outside the box for medicine. You know, what does that mean in everyone's community, what does, you know, vegetable prescription programs, you know, unconventional CME, what does that mean for reaching out across, you know, social media platforms and connecting with others. Just thinking about medicine in a different way in that non-traditional kind of lens, and viewing it as a world of possibilities. Yeah. Fantastic. Wow. I want to thank you both so much for taking the time out, sharing your perspectives, your thoughts, everything that you guys are doing. Again, you guys are really a dynamic duo. And I'm super excited to see you, you know, where it all ends up, kind of seeing your progression and following along on your journey. So thank you guys both again so much. Thank you. It's been, it's been awesome to talk to you. Yes. Thank you so much for the opportunity. This is a great discussion. Thank you for tuning into another episode of Medicine Redefined. We love creating this show and hope that you guys find it as valuable as we do while we're researching or having discussions with many of our guests. If you do or you don't, or if you have any tips for us to make this a little bit better, just to make it slightly better experience for you or really anybody that you shared it with, please shoot us a message. You can reach us at all the usual suspects on social media, med redefined as our handle, but you can also email us at med redefined at gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. Now, I think that's all we have for today, but I do want to remind you that everything of this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute the practice of medicine, nor should it be construed as medical advice. No physician patient relationship is formed at anything discussed in this podcast. It does not represent the views of our employers. We recommend that you seek the guidance of your personal physician regarding any specific health-related issues, but as always, if you enjoyed the show, please be sure to subscribe, review, share with anyone who you think will gain value, and we have to see you next time. Thank you for listening.