43. Colin Zhu, DO: How to Thrive and Elevate Your Life with Culinary Medicine

Hello everyone, I'm Dr. Darsha, and I'm Dr. Altamash Raja, and welcome to Medicine Redefined. A podcast where we will explore the often overlooked but necessary components of health, what we consider to be the fundamentals. We will investigate topics and practices that can give you and your patients the best chance to optimize a healthy lifestyle. It's time to move the needle forward and put the health back in healthcare. Hey everyone, happy new year, welcome back to Medicine Redefined. We're super excited that you're here to kick off the new year with our first episode. And for this episode we have an awesome guest. His name is Dr. Collins-Zoo, and he's a board certified physician in family practice and osteopathic manipulative therapy and lifestyle medicine. Question about the intersection of medicine, food and nutrition, Dr. Zoo trained as a chef and a health coach at the Natural Gourmet Institute for Health and Culinary Arts and the Institute for Integrative Nutrition following completion of his medical degree. To share his unique blend of medical knowledge with a wider audience, Dr. Zoo launched the chef doc in 2017, an online wellness and lifestyle education platform which has been featured in several publications. Dr. Zoo is an international speaker, the author of Thrive Medicine, how to cultivate your desires and elevate your life and is the podcast host of Thrive Bites in which he interviews the latest health and wellness experts about incorporating a plant-powered lifestyle, enhancing emotional wellness and creating a thriving mindset. His latest venture is his signature event for 2021 is a self-educational masterclass series experience called The Thrive Formula, where he combines inspiration, education and practical tools on how to thrive. Here you will learn the five to thrive pillars. One, food is medicine, two, functional fitness, three relationships, four community and last but not least emotional resilience. Now this was absolutely a pleasure to talk to Dr. Colin Zoo. You guys will enjoy this episode greatly. I mean, we discuss his love for the culinary arts, how he got into cooking, why he decided to transition to going plant-based for the last six years, we discuss his book and even his own personal journey as he has traveled the world and he's got some pretty cool stories. So enjoy my conversation with Dr. Colin Zoo. All right, welcome back everyone to another episode of Medicine Redefined. Here across the screen I got none other than Dr. Colin Zoo and interestingly, how I kind of came across you. So, you know Dr. Heather Hammerstead, I saw her, you were on her podcast originally and she was a guest on ours way back probably a year ago, episode four or five. So that's how I kind of heard about you. And then as I was doing rounds with my program director, I was talking about my podcast and she said, oh, lifestyle medicine, you know, I had a med school friend, have a med school friend that does that. I was like, oh, who is that? What's the name? Maybe we can bring him on. She said your name and I was like, I know who that is and we're going to make it happen. And here you are. So how are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on privilege to be here and to be able to share my story and definitely shot out to Dr. Natasha. So her and I go way back. So that's awesome. So I want to start this episode because you have a unique journey, I believe. And I know your mom had a pretty big influence in terms of what you do now. What kind of role does she play for you? I think she played the foundational role. You know, for those that don't know, she's a traditional Chinese medical doc and she's an immigrant. I'm a first generation immigrant, American or child. And pretty much we didn't come from, my family, we didn't come from a long line of MDs. So heaven been kind of raised under her. She really taught me to look at the world in a very holistic and whole person approach, especially towards medicine. And she's definitely contributed towards that. Interestingly enough, I've always been interested in the human body, the mechanics of it, the body mechanics, a dynamic flow of the human body. And I actually wanted to become a chiropractor first. And long story short, I ended up going to medical school and wanting to combine East and West. And through my schooling and training, and I'm sure you're going to ask me this later, that's how I took a lot of detours and ultimately ended up in lifestyle medicine, culinary medicine, and interestingly enough, I actually was going to pursue PM and R before I actually got trained in family medicine. Gotcha. Okay. So yeah, you are known as the chef doc. So when did you start cooking? Did you always have an interest in it? Both my parents cooked, lucky enough. And so I was very comfortable in and out of the kitchen, you know, learning if you can call them recipes, mom, mom, just literally, she's, she's never followed the recipe and she's more of a, you know, let's wing it, let's throw stuff together, you know, let's look at the fridge and see what we have left over and create a meal out of it. And I've always, you know, love that, you know, approach. My dad doesn't follow a recipe either except he is more of the lane of, let's just stick with Chinese cuisine and, you know, I rather not dabble in anything else. And that's where my mom helps me to explore others because she really cared about us, you know, relishing, you know, growing up as an American and all the different cuisines and foods that were exposed to. So that's amazing. So what inspired you then to kind of combine both of them in your practice, right? So you went to the natural gourmet institute. How was that experience? That experience was great. That happened after I finished medical school. So I went to an osteopathic school and, you know, again, the same thing with just being very, just in love with the human body. And then I stayed back for a year, you know, taught as a teaching assistant. So I graduated after five years. So that kind of put me all cycle. So I had pretty much nine to ten months to play around with. And I asked myself, what am I going to do most people would, you know, take some time off going vacation, bulk up the resume, do some research. Sure. And I decided to do, you know, something different. And during that time of school, you know, everything is mostly focused, you know, on path of physiology, pharmacology. And that was pretty much the bulk of it, right? And a lot of it wasn't really concentrated on nutritional, preventative care, wellness, lifestyle, and anything like that, you know, back in my day, you know, probably I probably set up to like maybe, you know, being generous up to like 25 percent. Most of the surveys would show would actually require nutritional class. My experience was like ten credits of nutrition. That was mainly biochemistry. So basically nothing. And so what inspired me was really every patient that we followed, shadowed, and, you know, treated no matter what walk through our doors had some sort of chronic lifestyle related component to it, a risk factor, things like that. And having gone school and, you know, all the subsequent, you know, clerkship and rotations thereafter, I realized that we just, you know, wasn't taught enough, you know, severely ill-prepared. And thus, you know, I started my journey of detours basically. And so that's why I decided to immerse myself into culinary school because I felt like it wasn't just enough to learn about nutrition. I think that was just brushing the surface level. Absolutely. Yeah. Just to touch on some points, you said there, right? So medical school, I think the most recent statistic shows that we get less than 24 hours a total of nutrition. And that nutrition, like you said, is biochemistry, right? Learning about the biochemistry of carbohydrates, proteins, fats, mainly fatty acids, if it were lucky. And then you're right about I think 90 percent of issues in the medical system are chronic disease, right? Which can obviously be prevented if we've learned to eat healthy, you know, as a child and kind of creating that with us. And I'm truly inspired by your generation of lifestyle medicine doctors because I feel like you guys didn't have as much avenues to go through. I mean, for me, you know, I can talk to people like you now, there's Beth Freides who we've had on the podcast, there's College of Lifestyle Medicine, we get more certified in it. But how did you think about how you were going to incorporate this into your practice? Was it something that you were just passionate about that you said, hey, if it works, it kind of works? Well, like you said, to add on what you said, definitely this generation is definitely more blessed than I was, you know, we had to kind of find the tools, you know, and, you know, we had to find the tools. And then I was from the generation where you have to find the tools and then not having an infrastructure or an infrastructure for actual clinical practice or any type of model that's very, let's just say like, you know, very good to, you know, use, you have to create it, you know, in a way. So Lifestyle Medicine was kind of, you know, the last thing that I came upon that I felt really resonated with me. I followed literally everyone else before, you know, coming upon Lifestyle Medicine. You name it, I probably, you know, chatteled or followed a mentor in it. And that ranged from integrative medicine to functional medicine, to naturopathic medicine, to, you know, everything, you know, and when I finally arrived to Lifestyle Medicine, this was around 2013. And I was probably a first year or a second year during, as a family resident, okay? That was when I found the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. During that time, it wasn't as big as it is now. Every single year since, because it actually started back in around 2003, you know, every year since it's been exponentially growing. And so I was lucky enough to kind of be involved with, you know, I, we actually created the first professionals in training board, you know, during that time with me and a couple of the colleagues. And yeah, we just, my journey started there. I felt like it was home professionally for me. It was, you know, definitely my tribe and, you know, it just made a lot of sense. And then there's, you know, you know, not to mention the mountain loads of scientific, you know, research that comes along with it. So. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And to talk about that scientific research, a great segue here. I want to know how you talk about Lifestyle Medicine with your patients, especially when it comes to nutrition. So I was, I was just on an app called My Plate, right? It's similar to my fitness pal, you know, where you can track the calories and I came across the message board, actually, where people can write down, you know, their issues and try to lose weight and I'm trying to gain weight. This will do with cardio, et cetera, et cetera. And when you click on these messages, it's very interesting. A lot of these people are so focused on the nuance, calorie tracking to, should I do keto, how much should I fast? And they seem to get away from the basics. How do you approach those topics with your patients? That's a good question. So, you know, when, before what I'm doing now, I have my own private practice in Lifestyle Medicine now and it's all telehealth-based. Okay. Before that, when I was in family medicine and working as a primary care, I pretty much saw everyone under the sun, you know? So you, I could, you know, talk to someone that was an extreme carnivore, to an extreme vegan and everyone in between. And what I've learned from that was you kind of have to meet people where they're at and, you know, not force anything, not, you know, just, you know, put on, you know, your version of your experience with it. And, you know, you just kind of see, you know, where are they, you know, and also where are they in terms of the five stages of, you know, behavior change and things like that. And just kind of see where they're at. You know, how do they view the world of food, lifestyle, nutrition? That gives you a little bit of more of an insight to, you know, how they approach it themselves, you know? I like to look at, you know, how they go around in the kitchen, whether they're in the kitchen or not. You know, what was it like, you know, growing up, you know, do they cook by themselves? Do they not? Do they cook with others? Do they not? How much they eat out, et cetera, et cetera. And then once I get that kind of information, I pretty much like to know, you know, what overall, you know, this is putting on my coaching hat because, you know, I also did more work as got certified as a health coach. And it's approach is very different than, you know, a physician to patient type of relationship. So putting on my health coach, you know, had on, I would ask them, overall, what do you want to get out of this? You know, I'm saying, what are your health goals, you know, what are your health and wellness goals? What do you want at the end of the day? And depending on what they say, I will help them achieve that, right? Or at least be their advocate, you know, their contribution partner, their cheerleader, whatever have you. And that is an ideal, you know, in my opinion, that's an ideal way of approaching the patient. And then, you know, I have a few resources. I rely heavily on, you know, micro-grigarist nutrition facts organization. I rely heavily on Dr. Neil Bernard's, you know, PCRM physicians can be for responsible medicines resources. And it's just, it's just a plethora. You know, the amount of work that these pioneers have already done, you know, for us and for us, you know, makes our lives much easier to be able to dispense this kind of information. There's no, you know, you don't need a trip over anything, you know, there's no haphazard thing. And, you know, Dr. Greger has, you know, his, you know, his top categories for a plant base, you know, Bernard has his, you know, power plate, you know, I believe it's called. There's just endless amounts of resources. So it's, the resources are there, the evidence is there. The bridge is really the practitioner, how much they're comfortable in themselves, right? Because if you look at the surveys, it's not only are we ill prepared, that leads to the provider just not being as confident, but what's also interesting is that if you look at the surveys, even with Dr. Google and everyone searching, I think like at least, at least up to like 80% of people have Googled, you know, their health concerns or symptoms before walking into a door, you know, they still rely on a physician or some sort of healthcare provider for their nutritional slash lifestyle concerns or needs. So at the end of the day, you know, you still have a very, very good foundation and point of contact for these patients to come to. It's really about you being prepared. And what I like about lifestyle medicine just to finish it off is, it's a very, you know, role modeling accountability type of profession. It's, it's more powerful when you practice it yourself and, you know, when you can lead by example, there to me, there's no more powerful example, better than any type of, you know, research or whatever. It's really about if you could, if you do it yourself, people will be more apt to follow you. I kind of agree more, right? It's like going to the gym and getting a personal trainer who doesn't look like a personal trainer. You know, it's like, how would you be likely to follow that advice? But you touch on an important topic there talking about physicians being prepared, you know, to answer these questions. And it's similar to almost the medical marijuana question where so many patients are coming as, but not many physicians are trained. But speaking about nutrition, how do you recommend physicians get comfortable with the topic? In terms of what? Like the education or the approach to, you know, teach their patients? Yeah. I think more about teaching the patient, right? If I'm coming to a doctor saying, hey, this, these are my health goals. How do I go about this? You know, I've heard doctors just say, oh, you just need to, you just need to eat less, right? The right approach, sure, it might be true, but it's not the right approach. So how do people, you know, doctors at least understand that? I think it comes back to them as a provider, as a basic, right? Like how well do you teach someone, right? I think back in residency, it's a, remember that C1, you know, do one teach one approach, right? It's not as succinct like that. It's not as because it's more about, because residency is about volume, right? It's about long hours. It's about, you know, a lot of patients, a lot of clinical hours to be able to harden, you know, yourself to be prepared. I don't think the way that we've learned or, you know, reflexively taught, you know, people under us would be used the same way. So if I was a provider watching this or, you know, wanting to kind of up level their education and slash teaching approach, you know, I would look into like things like health coaching, life coaching, physician coaching, like lifestyle medicine. There are a lot of great programs out there, you know, nowadays a lot of great resources. And honestly, is it an entirely different approach than, you know, how we did it, you know, in medical school? And you don't need it to replace how you were trained. I think it is a great compliment, supplement, you know, to be able to approach someone, you know, I'm saying, and kind of look at it like this, like how would you like someone to teach you? You know, do you like, you know, time, do you like, you know, like time matters, right? The style, you know, matters, how people, you know, bodies language approaches you, right? You know, how you use your voice, you know, using props or not, right? Like you have to kind of figure out what kind of teacher you are at the end of today. Because if you look at it, right, what's the Latin, what's the Latin definition of a doctor to teach? Right? So it's really about going back to the basics, right? And so before you can even answer that question, Darsh, it's really about, you know, about teaching nutrition, it's really about, you know, how are, what kind of teacher are you? Right. And, you know, you have to unconditionally learn, like unlearn how, you know, you can't just sit there for two to three minutes, say, eat more, you know, eat less, move more, and then done with that and be with it, you know, if, if, if, if healthcare, you know, unfortunately is, you know, becoming more and more like hospitality. But if this was like a hotel, like a client, you know, or customer would just walk out, you know, I'm saying, so it just, yeah, we have to pay better attention to it. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, patient satisfaction and patient experience go up with a doctor actually teaching, right? Whether it's drawing, you know, the physiology or just the handout, things like that. But making the patient feel empowered that they have control of what's going on. So totally agree with you on that. What have you felt like have been the biggest benefits that you've seen your patients when they start to cook on their own? Well, I think that, you know, like you said, being more empowered, you know, so I think the pandemic is a good example where, you know, in the beginning of the pandemic, everyone was relegated to going back to the homes, right? You know, they can't go out. Everything is sequestered. Everything is shut down, closed down, and, you know, they're left with, you know, to their own devices. So it was a great opportunity for them to get reacquainted or get firstly acquainted to their own kitchens. And I tell them this, you know, no matter where you are in the spectrum, whether you're a, you know, me either or an immigrant or anyone in between your health, you know, for sure, will get better just by cooking in the kitchen. And the reason why is because, you know, you are using less process stuff, you know, process ingredients, you know, better quality, you know, ingredients, you know, and you're just, you know, because what I tell my patients is that whenever you eat out, whenever you don't cook for yourself or eat within your own household, you're basically outsourcing your own food. And unlike alcohol and smoking, we can't survive without food, right? So it's, you have to eat it. We have to eat every single day, you know, theoretically speaking. You know, of course, you can go, you know, for a few days, you're without, but the point is is that, you know, you know, what goes, you know, what goes into your food, right? Whereas a business outside of you, you know, they're looking at the bottom line during their job is not to look at your health. That's your job as a patient, you know, it's not even a doctor's job. That's your job. And the job, the doctor's job is to kind of support you in your healthcare plan and your wellness plan, you know, I'm saying they're there to support you, you know, the, I think it's really about switching the narrative instead of putting everything on the doctor, you know, because it's not their body, it's your body. You know, I'm saying like you have, like I don't have hypertension, you know, I don't have to at least see you do, you know, I'm saying, and a lot of lifestyle, you know, a lot of lifestyle choices and all the lifestyle related, you know, issues that we have is actually from a choice that you make every single day, you know, I'm saying we have up to 35,000 thoughts a day, you know, and a lot of it sort, you know, goes around, you know, what do we eat? What do we eat? Where do I go? How do I buy? How do I source? You know, how do I cook? Do I cook with others? Do I not cook with others? You know, so these, these decisions, you know, we have to get into a practice of making better decisions for ourselves because every single decision, every time you put something into your mouth, there's two things that are happening. You have to ask yourself, am I, you know, feeding disease or am I feeding health? You know, I'm saying, so those are the, you know, that's probably the best way to, you know, tell your patients, you know, if I had to teach one thing to them. Yeah, no, I absolutely love that. And it's, I can attest to the whole cooking. So I grew up just eating, I wasn't really a cook, I always felt like it was a chore, but my wife, great cook. And so we started buying green chef, which is a food system, you know, they, they ship over veggies and things, they, you can make pretty healthy dishes out of them. And it's honestly meditative, I found, you know, and it's interesting because in the mornings when I wake up, it actually shapes the way I look at what I'm going to do for breakfast or if I'm going to fast for the day or what I'm going to do for lunch, because I already know what's going in my meal essentially for dinner. And why ruin, you know, that overall day with health? So it's, it's very true. Like you say, you, if you know what's going in your food, I feel like you definitely feel more empowered. Not only that, me and my wife, I felt like I've gotten closer, you know, being in the kitchen together, understanding each other's strengths. And then getting new ideas from food, right? It's just like reading a book where you're, you start to learn how the spices work. You know, one of the things that Netflix shows is that fat, acid, salt, heat, something like that, I mix it up the words, but just a science behind it, I think is really cool with, with cooking. So oh, yeah, for sure, right? It's fascinating. And I never knew how much was actually involved in it. But to add on what you said, it is a very meditative, you know, process. And it's one of my favorite activities alongside with traveling is where, you know, because we're very, you know, we're in a world where, you know, we're always in front of some screen. You know, unfortunately, and, you know, what traveling did as well as what cooking did for me was that it allowed me to engage in all of my five senses. So I have to smell something, I have to taste something, I have to touch something, I have to see something, you know, with cooking, you know, and I think with that kind of immersive experience, it lets you go back into reality, you know, sometimes, you know, during this time where you have no idea of, you know, what, what is a future for us as humanity as time goes on in the environment that we're in. I like to, you know, as part of my own self-care, I like to, you know, make sure that I have a good touch with reality because, you know, you can be, you know, very one-sided with just staying on a screen all day long. So I think when you pursue these types of avenues similar to like yoga or meditation or, you know, whatever have you when you're engaging in more than one sense, I think would be better for you. Yeah, I love that. That's a great point. I want to touch on your personal experience because you've, I guess recently have become plant-based, is that correct? No, I've been plant-based since 2014, so you've been going on almost, yeah, yeah. Why the switch? What made you go plant-based? Well, it was after the time that I completed my first marathon, so a lot, I've been doing triathlons, a lot of different foot races running race since 2006, so pretty much at the end of my college year, and, you know, I love being active, I've always been active, you know, growing up, and, you know, it was around that time where I started reading or listening to or watching, you know, documentaries, reading about, you know, the literature and all that, and I decided to give it a try. The biggest thing for me, other people have different responses after they made the switch. For me, it was very more subtle, you know, I didn't really, I didn't battle with like major chronic issues, you know, you know, my health has been, you know, on point. It was for me, what I was battling with when I was training for my first marathon was a lot of joint pain, sometimes, you know, after a meal, depending on what I would eat, you know, I get a lot of, like, bloatiness, you know, things like that GI upset, and, you know, when I made the switch, I realized that my training and performance was better, joint pains just kind of went away, I recovered faster, and I just stuck with it, and, you know, being as a Chinese American, you know, we pretty much ate, you know, everything, but equally, you know, the Chinese cuisine is done in a way where it's very much like eating a yang, we've strived for harmony and balance, right? So that also is tied into food. So there's always equal parts of like vegetables and meat and fish and, you know, grains and things like that. So making the switch to plant bees wasn't that hard, you know, and the Chinese are pretty good with, you know, cooking up, you know, more plant-based fare, you know, I'm saying, so it's not just, you know, salads and potatoes and carrots and broccoli, so. Right, so what do you say plant-based? Have you eliminated all meat or are you still incorporating some meat and just more, you know, I've eliminated it, I've eliminated all meat, you know, yeah. Gotcha. So I've grown up as a vegetarian, just religious, but then, you know, I'm pretty secular now, but I've never gone back, tried meat, so I really can't say the difference, but it's interesting, you know, a lot of people that I've talked to, when they go from carnivore to plant, have noticed a difference, there are a few people out there, right, Paul Saladino and people who've gone to carnivore diet, but now I've kind of tread back the other way. But yeah, I think just the research that's coming out, game changers, as documentaries that have come out to kind of influence people, it's very interesting. How much of the plant-based model do you recommend to your patients? The way I teach is basically based on three words, just eat more plants, and well, that's four words, but just basically have more plants. And for me, it's, you know, everyone can afford to eat more plants. I think 97% of all Americans are deficient and fiber, which I think is a central nutrient that we don't really talk about. And, you know, we just have a lot of room for improvement, right? And then also, I would teach them about that, and then also on a macroscopic level, how that affects mother nature, planet earth, and climate change. So everything is connected, and as long as we can make that individual decision, so no matter where you are, whether you care about individually, whether you care about globally, I think there's going to be an effect. And for me, as a healthcare provider for my patients, it's about finding what works for them, you know what I'm saying? And eating more plants, there's no downside to it, you can use a forward, you know, to, and it just helps on a larger scale no matter what. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned earlier about travel, so I know you're kind of a travel junkie, is that correct? Probably sucks with COVID, but we're all getting there. Yeah. So you've written a book, Thrive Medicine. I mean, it's what your podcast is based off of, and tell us about that book. What is it about? So book, Thrive Medicine is pretty much how to elevate your life, how to cultivate, you know, your inner desires. And for me, I've always felt, felt really, really attached to the concept of Thriving. You know, I've read, you know, the books of the Blue Zones, Dan Bucher's, you know, work, he has a few books out. And I really, what really hit it home for me was, the very first book I read was, no opportunity wasted by Phil Cougan. And he is the, I believe he's the host of the amazing race. I don't know if he still is, or, you know, that was like his main thing. Anyway, he pretty much chronicles like amazing people from all kinds of walks of life. And what I love about that book was he demonstrated and conveyed stories of just very average people. But, you know, they are breaking the mold on what we kind of perceive, you know. So when we get older, you know, we just think about, oh, I'm just going to end up in a nursing home or, you know, in a wheelchair or a rocking chair. And that's about it. And in this book, you know, you have, you know, someone in their 90s, you know, what is that? They're just, they're, they're, they're water skiing, basically. Wow. And, you know, they're just doing amazing things. And so that kind of led me to creating, creating things, creating a life outside of the box, you know, being non-traditional, not to the point of being non-traditional, but I was following more of, you know, just, just a path where it was meant for me and what made sense to me. So I didn't make a point to be non-traditional atypical, you know, you know, as a son, as an Asian American, as a physician, because everything I've done is very atypical. But that wasn't my point. My point was to live a very authentic life. And, you know, humbly speaking, I've been able to travel to 35 countries. I've touched every continent on the planet. And, you know, I've crossed path with a lot of great people that normally I wouldn't, right? I would sit at a bar and, you know, talk to someone from the Netherlands, someone from New Zealand, and someone from Morocco at the same time. And so whenever you have these conversations, a light bulb would come on, whether it's my light bulb or their light bulb. And I realized that, you know, these stories were amazing, right? And I said to myself, I wanted to kind of capture these stories. And so that's what sparked the idea for the book. So the book is kind of like half memoir, half, you know, self-empowerment, you know. And I really cared about the power of empowering someone else through your own story, through sharing other people's stories, and through an action plan, like actually taking steps and implementing it. So there's action steps at the end of every chapter. There's lines for you to journal in. And so like, yeah, it's a pretty cool book. It's an immersive book, right? I love that. And hopefully it inspires a lot of people to travel. Because, I mean, there's a problem in the United States, at least. Like, I don't even know what the stats are, but not many people who have their passports, right? To go out of the country. And, you know, I've recently tuned in. I do a lot of meditation, but I recently went to Tulum from my honeymoon. And we did something called a temescal ceremony. So it's essentially this like globe that you like sit in, like a big igloo with 13 other strangers. And they close it. It's pitch black. They heat it up like a sauna or like a steam room. And it gets really hot in there. They're banging music and you're chanting. And essentially, it's a very spiritual journey in a Mayan culture. And you're supposed to, you know, go through the realm of death. And then you get reborn and you come back, think about your childhood. And I came out of there just realizing how important connection is not only to ourselves, not only to other people, but also just the world itself, right? And I think that's what traveling does to you. Like you said, you're at a bar. And it's just, it's sort of real to almost think about that. You can be halfway across the world, meeting people, understanding different languages or cultures. The amount of emotion I can come out of that is just something that's so fascinating. What has been your favorite place to go? Favorite country? Do you have one? Oh, man, I've, I've several. But for different reasons. Iceland, Belize, you know, Australia, definitely Antarctica was a very, you know, surreal and marvelous experience. Basically, just observe, you know, nature and mother nature. Just imagine, do you have you ever watched Jurassic Park? So imagine the first time you've watched Jurassic Park. And, you know, just being like awe inspired by how, you know, amazing and jaw dropping, you know, that could be, right? Now you picture that same feeling, right? And you go to, you know, a part of, you know, a place where very, very, very, very, very few humans inhabit. Yeah, there's no actual permanent resident that actually lives there. Right. Only people that are part of the military, scientists, researchers can go and tourists, obviously. But you go there and imagine, you know, a place where basically, you know, humans don't really, you know, have altered. They have no footprint there. You know, I'm saying, and you see mother nature just flourishing, right? So I would see, you know, I don't have a picture to share, but I would have, you know, I would be on one of the islands off of the peninsula. And I'll be able to see a sea of King penguins as far as my eye can see. And there's no end to it. It stretches all the way out to like literally the horizon. And it's just a bunch of King penguins like, you know, just making a lot of noise. And they're the coolest creatures on earth, you know, they like stand like halfway up to your hip. They walk around like humans. And they don't care if you're there, you know, they give to whatever, you know, really care less if you're there. And it's just amazing to watch, you know. And then you kind of think about, you know, how human society has been, you know, up into this point. And you realize that, you know, we have such a profound impact, but we also have a profound responsibility, you know, whether we realize it or not. So it was definitely, you know, traveling. I also am a certified scuba diver. So those two experiences have let me to witness climate change firsthand. From like, you know, the bleach coral reefs off of, you know, the Great Barrier Reef to actually seeing like part of a glacier or a block of ice and an article actually collapse, you know. And, you know, it's, it's a very, it's a very humbling experience. So absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I've seen at least firsthand in Alaska, you know, you go to this huge glacier, one of the most famous and you can just see it receding and receding and mined by minute, you just see the ice kind of fall. So like you said, we have a huge responsibility. Quick question though, how did you get to Antarctica? Do you have to take a ship? Is there flight? Yeah, you fly down to the southernmost point of, you know, Argentina. It's called a Ushwaya, which is a very common point of a port that people do. Then they take a cruise liner. Usually it's an expedition ship and you're with a tour group. You can only go by some sort of tour company. You can't go there by yourself. And yeah, we went, you know, to the Antarctic Peninsula and to other, you know, British territories. And yeah. Well, incredible. So I mean, definitely on the bucket list, me and my wife are always looking to travel. We're actually going to Austria next and trying to Europe in the winter, which has kind of been in something on my bucket list. So excited for that. But the reason I also brought up travel for you is, you know, now that you've seen so many countries, you've seen how health care is different in other countries, especially when it comes to food. I mean, I don't, when you compare the East versus the West, the US is definitely lagging with so many different things. I mean, we can talk about government and the education that the government provides to the US population. We can talk about food sourcing, right? And not having probably enough farmers markets, pricing, maybe for foods, even. What have you found to be the biggest issues barriers in terms of here in the US when it comes to getting healthy food for your patients, rest of the population? So there's a number of things. And you know, there's just, I think when it comes down to, it's really about capitalism. Okay. And that could be said about, you know, if you think about, you know, our health care model today, if you think about our food industry, and then you think about like us as consumers, you know, like at the end of the day, you know, who is the actual, you know, like product at the end of the day. So in other countries that don't operate the way we do, there's less, I guess, pockets that, you know, are more concentrating of filling, you know, themselves, right? So, so I've had the discussion on with a good medical colleague of mine, and if we could get like, you know, kind of like how in medicine, we have a grand, grand rounds, right? If you could have like one gigantic table and, you know, have, you know, someone from the food industry, a restaurant association, someone from, you know, fast food chain, someone from, you know, the, the actual culinary world, someone from healthcare, someone from public health, like get all these major players under, you know, one, you know, one table and actually talk about like the real issues and create, you know, what I believe needs to happen, social responsibility, because right now everyone is just operating for themselves, right? The healthcare industry is operating for themselves, you know, so there's a beautiful quote by, I wish I remember their name. I'm going to paraphrase, but the food industry, you know, operates in a way where it doesn't, you know, pay into mine, you know, what is going on with health, and the health industry, you know, operates in a way where it doesn't pay to mine about food, right? And so there's a huge separate dichotomy, right? Yeah. So, you know, when people are not, you know, when they're looking outwardly, you know, and looking at the person to their left and looking at the person to their right, and know that they're going to have a effect, you know, then it, you know, you know, it changes the conversation, you know, I'm saying. So I think that if we can operate more from a social responsibility on how, you know, we could, you know, uplevel each other, still make a profit, and still, you know, benefit, you know, each other, because at the end of the day, we all live on the same planet, right? Right. Yeah. Like our choices, you know, whether your conscious or not is, is, you know, always going to be affecting, you know, our planet. So, you know, I think we need to have more of these players together to have a conversation, and we just need to do better. So other countries don't want to answer questions. Other countries don't operate as much of a capitalistic, you know, realm. So when you have less of that, then I think, you know, I think less of, you know, the thought of needing to make more money is decreased, you know, bottom line doesn't mean I'm not an economist, but I'm sure, you know, that's my view on it. Yeah, no, absolutely. And yeah, hopefully we do kind of get more people up there. I know, you know, EC Sinkowski, we've had her own recent episode. She talks about this a lot as a nutritionist. The Netflix show down to earth that kind of highlights what other countries are doing in terms of water, food, just health care in general with Zach Efron and Dan Orland. So, I, you know, hopefully there are people out there that are starting to recognize it and starting to push it out there and get people to kind of quote unquote be woke of lack of a better word. Issues in health care, different kind of topic here, but I've heard you say on another podcast that it's like being in the kitchen, because there's too many cooks in the kitchen. What did you exactly mean by that in terms of health care? Yeah, if you ever work in the restaurant industry, you know, the important thing in the back of the kitchen, you know, or back of the house, I'm sort of speak, is really about efficiency, right? So my, my, my, my stick or my pet peeve as a provider when, you know, when I was working, you know, more, you know, in the healthcare system, per se, was if things were not efficient, you know, I, it's just, it's not good at the end of day for the patient. For me, I always look at, you know, the patient was my main, I guess, entity or thing that I cared about the most, you know, everything in between I really don't care. You know, so what that means is that, you know, I'm also very cognizant that I'm only but one link in the bicycle chain and you need all the links to be able to operate and run smoothly, right? So that includes, you know, the front desk, the office manager, the practice manager, your medical assistants, your nurse, et cetera, et cetera, right? So too many cooks in the kitchen, you know, is talking about how there's so many people and so many entities in between the physician and the patient that at the end of the day, it serves no one else. It doesn't serve the patient, it doesn't serve the physician and only serves a people in the middle, you know what I'm saying? And so you have this really upside down hierarchy system where the people at the top don't have clinical experience or have much less clinical experience, running the show and making the decisions and the people that are actually administering the health care system or the actual health care, you know, are, you know, what's the best way to say it? They're just following orders, you know, I'm saying. I think that, you know, a lot of times, you know, more so now than the predecessors that I shadowed, you know, the old school grandfathered, you know, physicians that I shadowed, you know, we're, for lack of a better word, we're just pawns on a chessboard, you know, I'm saying. And when you do not wake up and realize that you're just a pawn, then, you know, you can't make better decisions for yourself to create the medicine or at least practice in the way that you deem fit as opposed you're allowing someone else to run the show. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, that's absolutely well said. And I mean, I couldn't agree more. We're actually going to have a future guest on here, Dr. Peter Valenzuela. He was actually just on C dog, but he's written a book called Doc Related, which really goes into the issues of health care from honestly anything you name, from EMR to coding to kind of, you know, having too many cooks in the kitchen. So that's, it's, yeah, excited to have that too. But it's a real issue, like you said. Cool. So what is next for you? It's a good question. So as we are, I don't know when this recording will be out, but pretty much, we are in the middle of December of 2021 and a lot of January 3rd. You're going to be the first episode of 2022. All right. Yeah, but yeah, looking, looking, yeah, I appreciate that. Looking out into the new year, I think going into new year, I'm doing it with a little bit more humility and wisdom because I was just, you know, in this boat going into 2021. And I think like the rest of us, we thought that 2021 was going to be different, and it's not. But knowing that, you know, if we don't have that kind of mindset going into 2022, it would be better for us. So my point is, is that having, you know, lesser or no expectations is probably best for you. So going into 2022, we are looking more to evolve the Shaftag brand. You know, I also have a podcast myself, so we're continuing with season five of Frybites. So, you know, including more guests. I'm part of a team called the Plant Based Telehealth, and we are, you know, setting ourselves to be the number one lifestyle medicine, you know, telehealth, you know, platform in the country. So excited to be teaming up with them. And yeah, you know, for me, it's spreading the word of the Thrive Formula, you know, which is an online masterclass series, you know, based off of thriving. So I call it, you know, my thrive, the thrive on pillars, and it talks about food as medicine, functional fitness, resilience, community, and relationships. And I wanted to create something evergreen, you know, and self enduring, self, you know, educational. I wanted to create something like this that I wish I had when I was in medical school. Yeah, so that was pretty much the impetus of this. And so yeah, it's just pushing that message, you know, forward and to continue to thrive myself and to be able to pass that on for other people. I love that. Yeah, and we'll definitely link all of your socials and everything into the show notes. Do you do cooking classes at all? I don't have a formalized cooking class, you know, structure set up. I have been asked to do, like, you know, food demos, virtual demos, you know, since the pandemic, I've done, you know, I publicly spoke and hold workshops and demonstrations, you know, around the country before the pandemic. So now it's been, you know, more virtual. But yeah, we, I am planning on doing more, more on my YouTube. So more like cooking recipes and, you know, just, uh, uploading that because just moved into a new place. So I have a brand new kitchen. So, you know, doing more with that. But yeah, people can find me if they're looking, you know, for plant-based stock, that practices, lifestyle medicine, they can find me or any of my other teammates, depending on where you, you know, live because, you know, state licenses matters, you know, where you are. Right. And yeah, you can find me on all my socials, my website, reach out to me, you know, tell me what's good in your life, what's not good and, you know, how we can, you know, help you, you know, just thrive so you can help others in your life. So yeah, definitely. Let me ask you this, because you're going to be the first episode kicking off the new year. How do people get started with cooking? What's your number one advice for somebody who has no idea where to start? Just start. Just start. Just start, whether it's, you know, buying a brand new knife, you know, you don't need much. I actually did a whole course on how to get started with whole food plant-based. It's an audio course. It's like one hour long. And basically, I break it down where, you know, in terms of equipment, you know, you don't start, you know, you just start with a knife, start with a cutting board, and start with a silicon, you know, spatula, and you're good to go. Appliances, you don't really need much. You know, if you like to have help and delegating stuff, you know, get a high-powered blender, get a, you know, a convection oven or get a slow cooker would be, you know, if you have the change to put into it, you know, get one of those. But honestly, start somewhere, find a recipe, find, you know, you could do YouTube anything now. So, you know, follows, you know, something and have fun, experiment, cook with others, you know, and just have fun with it, you know, there is no limits, there's no right or wrong, like just go, have fun. And you be surprised, you know, you're going to learn a lot about yourself, you know, because like for you, Darsh with, you know, meditation, it's a very immersive experience. And, you know, to me, it's, it's not a nice to have skill, it's a survival skill, you know, saying so, and it's a survival skill that we need more of. Right, you know, I'm going to make it a goal of 2022 to at least learn about the science of cooking, because I know what gets me interested in things is understanding the mechanisms behind it. So, that's going to be my goal for 2022. Before I ask the last question, Dr. Zoo, I just want to say thank you so much again for coming on here. You are absolutely unique, you know, and I think people will be able to tell by listening to this. And I hope more doctors, when they listen to this, more people when they listen to this, understand that they themselves need to find those unique traits and that they can create value through that. And I think that's what that is what you've done. And through empowering yourself, you're now empowering others. So, super grateful to have you on here. So, thank you. And last, definitely my pleasure. Now, last question for you here that we ask all our guesses, how do we put the health back in healthcare? I think it starts with you. I think it starts with, you know, going along with what you said is about finding, you know, who you are at the end of the day, you know, going through that self-journey of exploring what it means to be human, you know, exploring what it means, you know, to identify with yourself, whether it's, you know, a name, whether it's, you know, you have to start with, you know, am I just my job? Am I just my work? Am I just my degree and challenge yourself? And, you know, revisiting this question. And from there, when you have a deeper understanding of yourself and, you know, and subsequently, you know, a purpose, a mission, you know, what is the why to yourself? You know, then you can have a better idea of how you want to show up in the world, you know, I'm saying, you know, I had to take pretty much a decade, you know, of really intensive introspective work, personally and professionally to arrive to where I'm at, you know, and everyone is unique. I would also say, don't play the comparison game. Oh, yes. And that leads to imposter syndrome and not feeling like you're enough, just throw all that out the window. And just honestly, just, you know, just show up, you know, just start, just show up. And, you know, the first step to, you know, a thousand steps, ten thousand step journey is the first step. So I just say, just, just start. Love it. Beautifully said. Thanks again, Dr. Sue. No problem. You know, I think it's super awesome to see how Dr. Zoo took all of his talents, his unique individual brand and kind of combined all that together to create his own practice and lifestyle and medicine brand. And even just talking to him, you know, you got this sense of wonder and awe. And he's really trying to live life to the fullest. So that was definitely awesome to see. And for this week, I think our call to action is very simple or at least clear, right? And I think it's learning to cook, learning to put your fingers on foods, understanding your kitchen, how to buy groceries, but getting in touch with what has been innate to humans all along. And that's cooking and preparing meals and understanding what goes into our mouths, because not only the health benefits, but I think there's also this obvious social benefit that we see, right? We just got done with the holidays, Christmas New Years, and maybe we had the opportunity to be with friends and family and cook some meals. And maybe we got those fleeting experiences that we don't always feel, but those are times of joy. And so why can't we just start to reconnect more, especially in times of COVID when there's more isolation? I think cooking is a great way to bring friends and family together. And so with that, our disclaimer, everything in this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute the practice of medicine, and we are not providing medical advice. No physician, patient relationship is formed, and anything discussed in this podcast does not represent the views of our employers. We recommend that you see the guidance of your personal physician regarding any specific health-related issues. And with that, please make sure to subscribe if you haven't, share this podcast, leave a rating, and a review, and we're going to pick some as in 2022. You all have a great, great, great New Year.